Podcast Episodes Archive - Red Slice | Speaker, Author, Leadership Trainer

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Lauree Ostrofsky: Hey Rockstar Leader, Don’t Forget About YOU

Most high achievers never look back and see how far they’ve come. They tend to focus on perfection and not wanting to let anyone down. Because of their outward focus on others – colleagues, customers, or employees – They often don’t know how to be empathetic and tender with themselves.

Empathy starts with self-awareness and self-care so leaders who want to achieve their goals would be wise to practice tenderness and empathy for themselves first. This kind of self-reflection and tenderness for self will help them be an effective and inspiring leader for others.

Today, author and leadership coach Lauree Ostrofsky joins us to talk about self-empathy and owning your leadership style. Lauree shares how challenging and yet worthwhile self-empathy can be. We discuss the downside of empathy and how to balance focusing on others with caring for yourself. She talks about how to develop our sense of self so we don’t fear reinvention, we can take better risks, and avoid unnecessary worry or anxiousness that doesn’t serve us.

To access the episode transcript, please scroll down below.

Key Takeaways:

Dig into your fears and discomforts. It may just be an opportunity that is outside your comfort zone and making you feel vulnerable. Fear is an opportunity.
Make a list of compliments you receive as you receive them – we need the physical evidence of what we have accomplished and where we have been to see how we’ve gained the confidence we have now.
Sometimes you have to give yourself space before you can give space to the other person to hear and empathize with what they’re saying and needing.
Own who you are without apology. You can invite people in and invite them to also own who they are.

“There’s a way to value people and value yourself at the same time, and it really takes understanding of yourself.” — Lauree Ostrofsky

From Our Partner:

SparkEffect partners with organizations to unlock the full potential of their greatest asset: their people. Through their tailored assessments and expert coaching at every level, SparkEffect helps organizations manage change, sustain growth, and chart a path to a brighter future.

Go to sparkeffect.com/edge now and download your complimentary Professional and Organizational Alignment Review today.

About Lauree Ostrofsky, Founder, Simply Leap

Lauree Ostrofsky, PCC, CPC helps women leap: clarify what they want and feel more confident putting themselves out there. For more than two decades, she has been an author, coach, and hugger with a client roster that includes executives at IBM, Microsoft, Harvard, the U.S. Department of Health & Human Services, and the Girl Scouts of the USA.

Her books are, Simply Leap, a happy how-to about facing the fear of reinvention and enjoying the crap out of your life, and I’m Scared & Doing It Anyway, a memoir about her own reinvention after a devastating brain tumor diagnosis at 28.

Connect with Lauree Ostrofsky:

Simply Leap, LLC: http://simplyleap.com

LinkedIn: http://linkedin.com/in/laureeostrofsky/

Facebook: http://facebook.com/SimplyLeap

Instagram: http://instagram.com/lauree_ostrofsky/

Threads: http://threads.net/@lauree_ostrofsky

Connect with Maria:

Get Maria’s books on empathy: Red-Slice.com/books

Learn more about Maria’s work: Red-Slice.com

Hire Maria to speak: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross

Take the LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy

LinkedIn: Maria Ross

Instagram: @redslicemaria

Facebook: Red Slice

Threads: @redslicemaria

FULL TRANSCRIPT:

Lauree Ostrofsky 03:11

think probably, like most people you talk to, it’s an inside job. It is having done that myself, been my first client, is really the way to do it. I My background is in marketing, and I was successful, and it, you know, in the marketing and PR world, and realized that I was getting paid for skills that I was less good at, and not being paid for the skills I was most praised at. And that really led me down a road and a journey to find this work that actually aligns with my greatest skills.

Maria Ross 03:43

Who So tell me more about that. What skills are you referring to? So

Lauree Ostrofsky 03:48

in the office, back in the marketing days, I was praised for reading a room. I could go into any meeting, and I could tell you, especially client meetings. I can tell you, you know a client, the client said this, but they’re really not happy. We really need to do that other thing, because their voice changed when they talked about it, like I could tell my bosses that. And I started getting on teams. I started having the team members that no one could figure out how to manage. They were suddenly put on my team as well, so I could switch the way or alter the way that work that we were doing on a team to fit the personalities and the needs of the people there. And those are very natural coaching skills, and yet they weren’t great. It’s not like I could pick up the phone and convince the New York Times to cover us or something like, right? I guess you knew it, but like, I would have a panic attack while on the phone. Yeah, in a way, wasn’t the same. You know, in these other instances, of

Maria Ross 04:50

course, and I sympathize, I empathize with you, because I come from a marketing background as well. And what I realized later, as I did, like strengths, finders. And things like that. Yes, were these skills about engaging people that I was often told they’re really hard to work with, or, you know, especially marketing and working with technical teams. Or when I was in advertising, working with as the account manager, with the creative teams, there were people I was told were cranky or they were really difficult to work with, and I would just intuitively build bridges with them, and I would have conversations, and I was like the one marketing person they liked and trusted. It’s so funny that your experience is very similar, and I never in a million years, way back then, thought I’d be doing the work I’m doing now. But it does to your point. It does feel more authentic to be doing this and like tapping into the things that we’re good at. What I love about what you said is you were intuitively engaging in empathetic leadership, engaging and meeting your people where they were, so that you could get the best out of them, so that they could do their best work and they could thrive. And ultimately, this is my whole point about making a business case for empathy that’s good for the business, that’s good for the team, it’s not just good for the individual. So when I hear folks say, like, well, I don’t have time to coddle my people, it’s like, Well, do you have time to help your people? Help you make your bonus this quarter? Because that’s what you’ll do if you engage in empathetic leadership, right?

Lauree Ostrofsky 06:17

We, you know, I turned staff members around, yeah, because they suddenly understood things in a way that they didn’t before. And so and we made clients happier. Yes, I actually had clients who would just call me about something that was going on during the day, because they knew I would listen. Yeah, and it wasn’t. And it was like, we’re keeping this business because the level of trust is high enough. And I think you know it depends on the organization. If they value trust to that point they they’re and that they’re willing to develop it. But I think that you know that that mutual trust has an empathy edge to it.

Maria Ross 06:54

The Empathy edge, I love it. Now, your most recent book is simply leap. It’s about facing the fear of reinvention and enjoying the crap out of your life. I love that definition or that description. You also wrote a memoir, I’m scared, and doing it anyway, about your own reinvention after a devastating brain tumor diagnosis at 28 and you and I shared my audience knows about my brain aneurysm experience, my memoir, rebooting my brain is all about that, and I’m just wondering I’m seeing the connection between the work that you’re doing and the experience that you had in terms of almost being scared to embrace a different way of being being scared to embrace your own power when you’re dealing with your coaching clients. And how I’m relating this to empathy, and maybe my listeners, is overcoming your fear of embracing empathy and understanding that it’s a strength, not a weakness. And so can you talk a little bit about that fear? I’ve thought about it that way. I love it. Yeah, because, I mean, we really are reinventing leadership, and some people are really scared about that, and we know who they are because they’re the ones forcing everybody to go back to the office. They don’t know any other way to lead. They don’t know any other way to be. So talk to me a little bit about the role of fear in preventing I mean, it’s obvious how it prevents reinvention, but where do you see it really getting in people’s way?

Lauree Ostrofsky 08:17

Oh, that’s such a wonderful question, and a really wonderful way to think about how we manage our teams. I think, well, one of the things that I say to clients is, when you’re afraid of something, it’s usually a good sign. It’s a sign you’re on the right track. Because if you didn’t want whatever this is, it wouldn’t be scary, it would be easy, or you wouldn’t care, and so, so I feel like something is there in that is that discomfort is actually a sign. And sometimes we take signs as, oh, I shouldn’t do it, because it’s a sign that, you know, it’s not easy, or it’s not aligned, or I feel about it, you actually have to dig a little bit deeper, because sometimes the fear or the discomfort is, this is new. This is forcing me to stretch in a different way. There’s an opportunity here that I’m attracted to, but I’m I feel vulnerable about and when we feel vulnerable, it is easier to move away from it than it is to move towards it. I

Maria Ross 09:18

think that’s, yeah, but it’s also, you know, so it’s how I repeat to my clients over and over again. Fear is an opportunity. It means you’re on the right track, right. Go a little bit further. Take another step closer to right, because fear is different than the ick. Fear is different than the like, Oh, I know in my bones this is the wrong way to go, right. It’s that. And I love this because it’s so applicable to so many leaders nowadays who are just scared of changing their well, they’re not changing. The leadership paradigm is changing, and they need to upskill different things that they didn’t have to before. They need to learn how to lead in a hybrid environment, in a remote environment. It. They need to lead in a way that marries the personal and professional, because we don’t park our humanity at the door. And I have empathy for them, because that’s really a new way for many people to operate. And so they’re feeling a lot of the what I call the snap, back to bossism, is fear. It’s I don’t know how to do this any other way than the way I was always doing it before the pandemic. So, right? Pandemic was just this blip.

Lauree Ostrofsky 10:25

Yeah, what happens if I get it wrong and, quote, unquote wrong, right? I think that the risk feels too high. Yeah, the risk feels too high for me to get it wrong or to try like it’s either it’s very binary kind of look at it either, either I’m doing the safe thing that I know how to do, yeah, or I’m risking it all. And we also have to create the safety in in risk.

Maria Ross 10:53

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I talk about both and leadership all the time, and I love it. It’s like it can be both. I’m gonna try this and I may fail, but, you know, it’s both hard and it might be worth it. Like, instead of the either or like, it’s either gonna be black or white, I’m gonna fail or pass. We’re all learning I love, you know, speaking to a lot of other my interview guests, especially those CHROs and those chief HR officers who are talking about the fact that, look, this is an experiment. Nobody’s got this figured out yet. So we’re trying different things, and we’re keeping ourselves open to feedback. And we know some of it’s not going to work. We already know that going into it, but we have to try it, to see what we can learn and what we can tweak and what we can grow. And so I love that concept. So you talk a lot about, you know, focusing on your own confidence, focusing on taking care of yourself so that you can show up as the best version of yourself. Can you talk to us about how challenging but also worthwhile self empathy can be, and can you describe what you mean by self empathy.

Lauree Ostrofsky 12:01

Well, the example that I give is actually, if you imagine walking a kindergartner first grade or their first day of class, and you walk them into the class, and you remind them, Oh, I’ve packed your favorite snack for you. And you watch them, you know, figure out their seat. They’re like, well, these people kind of look friendly, you know, you’ll meet someone, and you kind of stand outside the door and you really hope for the best with them. And we have that parts of ourselves too. We are the kindergartner that we have to care for, around the fear, around the vulnerability, around the discomfort. We have to remind ourselves of the snack we pack, and the tenderness that we would give a child going into a new situation, we need to give ourselves some time. And I think that most of us mean teacher ourselves, or mean parent ourselves, or like, buck up kid. You’re gonna go in there like you don’t get to feel anything. And actually it’s totally normal. It’s totally normal for a kindergartner. It’s totally normal for us, yeah, and I think that kind of self kindness. So when I mentioned the child, most of us still like, oh, yeah, I get that. Okay. Well, so then what’s our version of that? What’s the version of packing our snack to enter that boardroom, right? And that meeting, we’re not sure how it’s going to go or to try something and experiment. So you were saying experiment, it triggered. I always talk about research to my clients that as a students, as people pleasers, as externally focused folks, we have a tendency to look for our a’s and our gold stars externally, and yet we’ve got to give them to ourselves, right? And the easiest way, one of the easy ways to do that, is to imagine everything as research. Because we know research, as you just said, as we’re collecting data all the time. If all this is is data, if every meeting and conversation you have is data, then, then we can come together and analyze that data, as opposed to, I’ve got one shot in this moment, everything you know, failure, that’s it. Yeah, the world will end. Yeah, yeah. But it’s really that those that wording that’s going to make it so much easier for us to to approach with openness, I know, and

Maria Ross 14:26

that can get hard. I’m a type A overachiever, external validation gal. I’m the achiever on the Enneagram, and I get it, and this is the thing I always I struggle with, and maybe some of my listeners do too. I feel like I’m so compassionate. I can be not always. I can be compassionate and empathetic with other people, but when it comes to myself, and I try to do, you know, tender, like I love the word you use, tenderness, tender self talk with myself, I have this little voice that, like, says you’re just placating yourself. You’re just babying yourself. Like you’re fooling yourself. And it’s really interesting to try to figure out, well, where’s that voice coming from, and is that actually what I subconsciously think about other people who I’m comforting. You know, it’s like this whole metaphysical Well, I don’t, let’s, I’m not going to turn this into a therapy session for my listeners, but, but I’m sure that there are a lot of other high performers as well that like, well, that yardstick is good for you, but not for me. And I’m wondering how we break ourselves of that pattern to say, Why is your yardstick so high, and if I may, say unachievable,

Lauree Ostrofsky 15:35

right? Well, one of the things I think that comes up is because we’re so future focused, we don’t always notice the path that we’ve been on. We don’t always, we often can notice the thing we don’t know now, but not the thing we didn’t used to know, right? And because when we look back, it seems so quick that we figured that out. It didn’t feel that way. No, when we were staring it in the face, you know? Yeah, trying to figure it out. And so I, like a lot of my work, is, do you remember two months ago we talked about this? I, you know? I find that actual, real examples work the best, especially when we have a very loud inner voice that might be the mean teacher, the main parent or the you know, you’ve got to figure this out pretty fast. I’ve so I often have my clients make a list of compliments you’ve received as you receive them, or a list of things that you accomplish as you accomplish them, so that way you have something to refer back to. We actually need, we need the data. We need the physical evidence. And I know this sounds simple, but most of us, high achievers never look back, and don’t allow ourselves to like like, judge ourselves for looking back, too. And so the beauty of recording in whatever way. So it could be a note on your phone or a list by your on your desk, or a post it note or something, the small amount that we can do, the tiny, easy way that we can do it, really makes a difference, because then the data doesn’t lie. Yeah, absolutely.

Maria Ross 17:19

I talked about this totally

17:21

lie Yes,

Maria Ross 17:22

100% and in the empathy edge, when I had my section on how to strengthen your empathy as a leader, my previous book, one of the tips I had was to build your self confidence. And that was one of the actual tactical tips, was create a folder on your email or in, you know, I have one in my file drawer too, and that’s where I statue. I have one on my on my email called sweet stuff, and that’s where I put all the things, where someone’s going, oh my gosh, you did this amazingly. You did this great job. Like I put that there because we have to go into our interactions with other people with that tank full, with that sense of self grounded. Because if we don’t, that’s why that that’s a tip for strengthening empathy, is because if you’re if you’re not broken, but if you’re feeling hurt, if you’re feeling unsure, if you’re feeling depleted, exactly, you cannot take on another person’s point of view without defensiveness or fear, and so it’s a reminder of going back and on those days when your confidence flags, going back to those files, going back to those notes, going back to the you know, it’s so funny, because just the other day, I was reading feedback forms that were sent to me after a conference where I spoke and I got, I did my own evaluation from the stage, and I got really great feedback. This was from the conference organizers. And 90% 95% were like, Oh my gosh, so positive. Like, this was so useful. Loved your presentation. La, la, la. And then a few people got their knickers in a twist about the fact that I mentioned I had a book they thought I was selling from the stage because I mentioned my book, and I mentioned that I was going to be at a book signing at the event right after my talk, which I was just telling people so they knew why I was running out of there. So whatever. But of course, what do you do as a high achiever? Right pages of feedback, and then I shut it so funny. I closed the document after I had read only the like, pretty much the negative ones. And I stopped myself, and I said no, and I opened it back up, and I read only the positive ones, which were most of them, and I skipped over the four or five kind of negative ones. And I thought, why do we do that to ourselves?

Lauree Ostrofsky 19:39

Oh, my God. I know it’s so important to remind ourselves that our brains do that naturally, yeah. And so we have to do everything we can consciously to shift our brains Yeah, away from it, yeah. It is even, you know, it’s a natural human response, okay, I know it was supposed to help me with like bears and. Yeah, exactly, right. It’s really not useful right now, no, and yeah. And it’s so interesting, because I talk with my clients a lot about I mentioned data already, but it’s even you know when with your response, or responses when you send out a newsletter, or when you you know are kind of collecting research. It’s like, well, some people didn’t like it. So does that mean we should change our direction? Well, actually, let’s talk about context. How much of this is about context, right? Something about them that was happening, the number of people that event like, how many? Statistically? Yeah, if only four out of out of 50 responses said, do it differently? Well, statistically, you never, yeah, that’s

Maria Ross 20:44

not a trend line. Yeah,

Lauree Ostrofsky 20:46

right. And so we kind of have to do that with ourselves, with responses like, what you’re talking about, it’s like, Okay, what’s the statistics here? What’s the other context? What side of the stage were they sitting on? You know what I mean, like, what? Oh my gosh. Other things that I can I can consider this from before I integrate it, before I take it on, right, or

Maria Ross 21:08

before I create that false narrative for myself of what’s going on. And, you know, there are times where, yeah, the majority of feedback about something could be negative, and then that’s a learning opportunity. And I always talk about this with, you know, I’ve had a few books. We talked before we started recording about the fact that I wrote a memoir about my brain injury recovery called rebooting my brain. And I have hundreds of positive reviews. I have emails from people thanking me for the book, like that’s what I wanted to do, is I wanted to impact and help other people so they didn’t feel as in the dark as we did. Yes, did I get a few one star, two star ratings on Amazon and on Goodreads? I did, and I recall those exactly, not the other 400 other right? But to the people that thought my story wasn’t harrowing enough for them, like that, I wasn’t close enough to death for them, like Yeah. So I call it my point being I call it the strainer method, because some of the feedback, and even the negative feedback about books I’ve written in the past have actually been really helpful. Like, if someone’s saying, well, she seemed to ramble on in this section of the book, I can look at that and I can say, oh, I need to do a better job editing in the future. Or, yeah, I can see how that that was a little repetitive in that portion. So some of the feedbacks been constructive and good, even if it’s slightly negative, but it’s, it’s that strainer method of like, take what’s good out of the feedback that you’re getting and leave the rest and take and not just accept the positive. I don’t mean that, but take what’s if it’s negative and it’s constructive, and you can learn from it. Do something with that going forward and make the next iteration, the next thing better than before. So

Lauree Ostrofsky 22:47

and again, there’s also, there’s also the ability to separate yourself and your sense of self. We were talking about self empathy before your sense of self can be it should be separate than the feedback you receive. And I think especially if you’re if you’re an over, over empathize, or if you’re a people pleaser. Further than that, it’s really hard that boundary is a little porous, yeah, and and so where we get our sense of self from is going to determine also how far in comments get. Yeah. And so I think being aware of when you’re in the right head space to even receive them, that’s so important. I hear right now. Can I really receive this right now, or is it going to be piled on with the thing I’m already upset about, right or I’m already fixated

Maria Ross 23:39

on? And that’s why, you know, with the new book with empathy dilemma, I talk about being I talk about self care and clarity, and that includes self care about your own boundaries and and clearly communicating them, and communicating not in an aggressive way, like this, is my boundary. Do not cross it. But you know, being clear about the boundary, because you can set a boundary if someone’s if you, if you’re a leader, and someone’s coming to you with an issue and you have something going on, or you, you know, I always use this example of like, every Tuesday you’ve told your team you’re going to leave at you need to log off at four o’clock because you’re coaching your kids soccer game. Someone comes into your office at 355 about a major issue with a colleague or a major issue with a project. You don’t have to give up your boundary, but you can acknowledge and say this is really important to you, I can tell, and that means it’s important to me, but you know that I have to leave early on Tuesdays, so I’m going to clear some space for us to have a conversation tomorrow, and I want to be able to be fully present and be able to listen to you versus you trying to get everything out in the two minutes I have before I leave, because that’s not really going to benefit you, and that’s a way of acknowledging someone and seeing them and being empathetic as a leader, while still holding your own boundaries, and then to your point, taking care of yourself, to be in a position where you. Can hear the person, where you can listen, where you can offer constructive feedback and advice if asked, but you like you said, it’s so important you have to be in that right headspace. And part of being an empathetic leader is recognizing when you’re not and being open and honest with the person to say, this is not a good time. It’s not going to give you your due if we have this conversation right now, can we have it tomorrow?

Lauree Ostrofsky 25:25

Yeah, there’s a way to value people and value yourself at the same time 100% I mean, that’s really what we’re talking about here, and it really takes understanding of yourself, because not all of us have taken the time to understand what our own triggers are, and to even notice how we feel in a moment, to recognize what’s, you know, what someone else is bringing to us, why we’re responding the way we are. Oh, what does that say about actually, where I am right now? And to be able to say, you know, what I’m gonna need a minute, yeah, so I can really hear you. You know, let me go to the restroom and come back. Or, you know, why don’t we take a five minute break here? And it’s, yeah, it’s kind of giving ourselves the even the one minute of space, the space to understand, like, okay, what are they coming to movie with? But first, where am I? For sure? And the better we can train ourselves about it, you know, makes it makes us better partners, parents and colleagues and bosses.

Maria Ross 26:24

So, you know, we talk about empathy as being very, very focused on the other and being able to see their point of view and understand their perspective without dipping into people pleasing, but just being there for them and understanding them. It doesn’t mean we have to agree. It doesn’t mean we have to change our decision, because what they’re bringing to us, but what are some tips you have to balance that focus on others and still care for yourself? What techniques or practices have you seen work for your clients or for yourself? You know, I’m the introvert, and I would say that owning my introversion has been one of the best things,

Lauree Ostrofsky 27:02

actually, to be a leader and also to recognize my own needs. I have led a lot of meetings. I’ve spoken in a lot of events as well, and I needed to recognize how much time I needed before the meeting or the event and how much time I needed after, because I’d force myself into networking before and then getting on stage Never a good place, because I’m already depleted when I need to be at my highest energy level, right? And and the same. And then I’d set up meetings for the day after, or at least the morning after. And it’s like, Well, that isn’t the way my energy levels work. And what I found is when I admit to other people I’m an introvert, one people are like, Oh, my God, I am too. There’s so much relief, yeah, and that, and I think it allows me to own my leadership style in the way that works for me, and I feel, I honestly feel less apologetic about it, and I think that that is the part that I help clients most with, is what’s a way to own who you are without apology, right as an invitation instead? How can you invite people in by owning something about yourself that maybe opens the door for them to own something too or make room for both of us? I

Maria Ross 28:29

love that theme of owning your leadership style, and I go back to as well, the dark side of that where some people read books or hear that advice and they swing the pendulum too far the other way of becoming unyielding, of like I said, the passive aggressive, like this is my leadership style, and I’m not going to change. There’s a way to communicate that to people in a loving, open way. Yeah, not that you have to be someone you’re not if, but, you know, there’s a way to communicate that that’s not so so much putting a barrier in front of yourself versus just, hey, this is who I am and this is how I operate. Do you find that it’s hard for people to balance that, you know, so they they come to you, and then they take that advice, and then they’re, you know, pissing off co workers or colleagues because they’re being aggressive about their boundary setting. Do you know what I’m saying? Is there a dark side to that?

Lauree Ostrofsky 29:24

Well, I would say that actually, the thing that I would I would more likely say, is that people’s responses to your boundary session, boundary requests, it’s often about them. So I’ve talked with I lost my mom last year. And so, like, there’s a lot of, you know, kind of grief about that, and folks will have lots of opinions and say, like, you know, she’s in a better place, or, you know, are, don’t you feel relieved? Or whatever, you know, like, people say these things, and it’s never about you, no, it’s always about them. So I would say that, I mean, for me, the context. Best about that is, is normally when people respond to your boundaries, as long as you’ve given some effort, most people respond from their own place, and if they’re not great about boundaries, they get really uncomfortable about yours. So it could be an invitation for a conversation I wouldn’t give up with the negative. You know, if you’re getting a negative, like someone’s really holding boundaries, is it because of something that’s going on with them? Is there something that can be named that actually brings you closer together, as opposed to further apart? And we’re not in a society where that is encouraged. But I think that you have the books that you do, I do, the work that I do, to really turn the tide, yeah, and staying in it is so powerful, yeah, yeah. It really can change our environments for the better.

Maria Ross 30:55

I love that. I love that so much. So let’s talk a little bit more as we kind of wrap up on this idea of fear, this idea of fear of being an empathetic leader, or being a people centered leader, this idea of fear around I’m going to get taken advantage of. I’m going to get walked all over, all of the false narratives that some leaders tell themselves about bringing empathy to work and even getting to know the people on their teams or the people that work on a personal level, not that everybody has to be best friends, but yeah, you know what’s what do you think is behind that fear? I know there’s probably a variety of reasons. People have different neurodiversity challenges, people have different social comforts, but what do you think is behind some of those fears? And how can we help leaders and colleagues get past that fear of connection as much as we can within a workplace?

Lauree Ostrofsky 31:48

Gosh, I would, I think I would go back to what I was saying before about the the positive side of fear that I think that was, it was a bit destructive the whole culture around fearlessness, that we need to be fearless, yeah, and I think fear has so much to teach us, and so fear in a work setting can also be really positive. There is an opportunity here, and I think that if we can shift in ourselves, how we feel about fear and what we say toward like, the narrative that we tell ourselves when we feel it or when we notice it in others. I I think that we see more of the opportunity there. I know that isn’t exactly what you’re no, I

Maria Ross 32:33

really like it. Like, it’s so important. I like where you’re going with this. Because I think there’s I’d like to just pick at that for a little bit, because I’d like to understand what you think about how fear is viewed in our culture and also in a corporate culture. What do you see as the negatives around that, and how can we change that narrative, like whether it’s about fear of empathy or not? I that’s just such a I’m just curious about that.

Lauree Ostrofsky 32:56

I think that we see weakness in fear. The fear is an example of weakness, and anything that could be termed weakness, we run from, we avoid, we shut down in ourselves or other people. And if we can wait a beat and just notice the feeling first. Notice the sense in the room as a conversation is happening in a meeting, it gives us a chance to see the thing underneath it. And fear and anger are the first responses. They aren’t usually the actual feelings underneath it, right, right, not many people wait to see what else is there or stay curious enough. And I think that perhaps is the because we’re afraid of fear. That’s the thing that comes through in our culture.

Maria Ross 33:59

Wow, yeah, I love that perspective, and it’s making me think about, what if we’re not the one that’s operating from fear. So what if we’re on the other side of that table and we’re dealing with a leader or a colleague that is unable to connect with us because of their fear? Do you have any advice for listeners or us about that. How do we how can we help them build that trust? How can we help them feel okay with that connection? I’m thinking specifically of, you know, I moved this summer to I don’t, I don’t live in the San Francisco Bay Area anymore. I live northeast of Sacramento, and I met a lot of new people. And there’s, there’s, there’s one person that it’s there’s a lot of fear from that end of creating a connection, and it manifests the social awkwardness, and I don’t know how to respond to it. My instinct is to double down, which is probably making it worse, right? I’m trying to be familiar. Increasing, yeah, increasing. The. Fantastic. It’s probably not good. And so I’m wondering, and I know I’ve worked with people like that too, where it’s sort of like I’ve made it my mission to get them on my side, to, like, win them over, right? Because I can sense there’s a fear around that. Or, you know, if you are a high achiever and you have a boss you think doesn’t like you, well, you double down on that. Well, I’m gonna make you like me, I’m going to make you have a relationship with me. So do you have any advice for the people that are probably not your clients on the other side of the equation, how we how we can interact with people operating from fear in a positive way to create a positive relationship? Yeah,

Lauree Ostrofsky 35:37

so a few things, because one is curiosity, and curiosity is so the answer. In so many instances, we can say, curious, Oh, my Lord, but let’s just be clear, Curiosity is not easy. It is not the first thing most of us pick no

Maria Ross 35:51

and some people and some people feel attacked if they feel like I’ve noticed this too, when I lean into curiosity, especially about this one person, it sounds like I’m peppering them with questions, right? And so then they’re like, Yeah, you can see them backing up, you know, right, physically and emotionally, but yeah. So

Lauree Ostrofsky 36:08

I just, I want to keep that in the background, because I think it’s, I think that we can stay curious in our minds, even if we don’t. Are verbally curious, I certainly mean, like, yeah, Curiosity can also create a pause. And I really think one of the themes in our conversation is pausing as much as you can. And so if you can get yourself to pause and internally stay curious, you might notice you might notice more about their tone of voice. You might notice more about their facial expressions. You might notice the thing that they just are talking about that you were glossing over and like, oh, wait, this is really important to them. I didn’t even realize so pausing and curiosity is always number one. The second thing is often, especially if your peers, the person is waiting for someone else to go first. When it comes to anything vulnerable, I’m not going to let my guard down until I can sense it safe. And if you’re noticing some kind of reticence in the other person, yeah, it might mean you have to create a safe space, not by throwing

Maria Ross 37:14

yourself out, spilling all your dark secrets. Yeah, right.

Lauree Ostrofsky 37:18

What more about kind of you know? More about, you know, sharing first, yeah, or and leaving space. And the other thing is that people are on different paths. And yeah, so some people take longer to to warm up. And I always keep in mind this colleague that I work with that I really thought hated me, and oh my gosh, because she was so short. She was working in New York, like, there’s a lot

Maria Ross 37:44

of you know, she was very curt and direct, yeah.

Lauree Ostrofsky 37:48

And she said to me, once you’re in, you’re in, meaning, she’s got a hard shell, but soft on the inside. And I always remember that, yeah, that the hard shells are often really soft on the inside, and that’s why they’ve built up the hard shell, right? And so, so my job, or your job, isn’t to crack the shell, it’s to notice when the softness kind of appears, right? You know, is it when they talk about their dog, or when they talk about a, you know, a certain moment, it’s like, yeah, it’s there, and I can see the glimmers of that soft interior. I’m going to be encouraged to be more patient, yeah, to wait it out, to notice how bits are coming to me. And they’re going to then be more comfortable softening their shells too. I love how this is coming full circle. Because the only way that you have the capacity to do that is to be compassionate with yourself and show up with your own sense of self, your own self compassion, your own self empathy, otherwise you are too busy with your hamster mind of thinking about, how am I coming across? What am I doing? You missed those cues. So yes, you just you brought us full circle. I love it. I love it. You’re welcome. Lauree, I could talk to you much, much longer, but we’ve got a wrap, so I will have all your links in the show notes, and especially your link to simply leap, and your other books and all your goodness. But for folks on the go, where’s a good place for them to get in touch with you or learn

Maria Ross 39:18

more about your work.

Lauree Ostrofsky 39:20

Yeah, yeah. So my business is simply leap, as you said, and that’s the best way to find me, simply leap.com because leaping is not simple, but talking about it really helps. So simply leap has just been such a, just a great name for me. And so, yeah, so I’d love to see you there. I also have my, you know, my books are there as well, and wonderful and new membership program that I’d love for them to be part of.

Maria Ross 39:45

So thank you, Lauree again, for such a great conversation. So much fun to talk to you and kind of tease out all these different concepts. Hopefully we’ve shared some good insights with our listeners and just really thank you for being here. Oh, thank you so much. And thank you. Everyone for listening to another episode of the empathy edge. If you like what you heard, you know what to do, rate, review and share with a friend or a colleague, and until next time, please remember that cash flow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be kind For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy. Visit the empathy edge.com there you can listen to past episodes, access show notes and free resources. Book me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes, insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slice. Maria, never forget, empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place. You.

Cash flow, creativity, and compassion are not mutually exclusive™

Shermin Kruse: Why Stoic Empathy is the Balance Leaders Need

What can stoicism teach us about empathy in modern life? This centuries-old philosophy can directly apply to what we face now in our workplaces and our world.

Shermin Kruse is here to talk to us about her latest book, Stoic Empathy. She shares what stoic empathy means and how the fusion of these seemingly opposing forces is particularly relevant today. She shares her personal story and how her immigrant journey shaped her understanding of empathy and stoicism. Sher also talks about how she leveraged stoic empathy as a lawyer to great success. We discuss practical tools for building influence and emotional regulation that you can start using today with your employees – or your partner or kids!

Whether you’re a corporate leader, educator, parent, or simply seeking tools to navigate personal and professional challenges with integrity, you will love this conversation!

To access the episode transcript, please scroll down below.

Key Takeaways:

Most of our relationships are long-term. Those are whom you owe a long-term duty to engage in and sustain that relationship.
Our control in this world is not fixed – everything changes, everything evolves, and we need to be able to accept that we can’t change and control everything.
Stoicism allows you to make informed and deliberate decisions rather than reactive decisions, especially in difficult situations.
Create relationships where you feel safe and are willing to trust the other person, even if you may not understand or agree in the moment.

“Know that silence is not submission, pause is not acceptance, and that even understanding is not agreement.”

— Shermin Kruse

Episode References:

From Our Partner:

Go to sparkeffect.com/edge now and download your complimentary Professional and Organizational Alignment Review today.

About Shermin Kruse: Corporate Advisor, Law Professor, and Author of Stoic Empathy

Shermin Kruse is a globally recognized author, negotiation consultant, law professor, and TEDx producer specializing in stoic Empathy, leadership, and complex negotiation, leadership, and complex negotiation. Born in Tehran during political upheaval, she immigrated to Canada as a child, later earning degrees in philosophy and neuropsychology from the University of Toronto and a law degree from the University of Michigan.

She is the author of Butterfly Stitching, a critically acclaimed novel, and Global Transactions and Regulation, a key resource for law and business professionals. Her latest book, Stoic Empathy, blends cognitive empathy with stoic principles to offer a transformative framework for leadership, influence, and resilience.

Shermin continues to champion empathy, resilience, and ethical leadership through her work in academia, business, and the non-profit sector.

Connect with Shermin (“Sher”) Kruse:

Website: sherminkruse.com

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/shermin-kruse

Facebook: facebook.com/sher.kruse

Instagram: instagram.com/sher_kruse

Book: Stoic Empathy. Also on her website.

Connect with Maria:

Get Maria’s books on empathy: Red-Slice.com/books

Learn more about Maria’s work: Red-Slice.com

Hire Maria to speak: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross

Take the LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy

LinkedIn: Maria Ross

Instagram: @redslicemaria

Facebook: Red Slice

Threads: @redslicemaria

FULL TRANSCRIPT:

Shermin Kruse 03:09

show. Thank you so much, Maria, such a pleasure to be here, and I’m so excited to join you and get to interact with your incredible listeners. I

Maria Ross 03:18

love it. So this has been a match in the making. For a while, we met through a mutual friend, and we’ve both had some scheduling issues of making this happen, and I’m so excited to finally make this happen and have this conversation with you. You have such a wonderful and inspiring story. So I want you to share, if you can, with our listeners, how you got to this point, you do so much. You are, you know, an expert in law, you produce TEDx events. You’re writing books. So tell us a little bit about this journey and how you got to this work that you’re doing now. Well, I appreciate

Shermin Kruse 03:54

that so much. And to you listeners out there, I’m usually the one interviewing people, so it’s sort of weird to be in the hot seat over here. And I think Maria is so interesting, I’d love I have 5000 questions to ask her. Let’s do it. Yeah, let’s do it another time. Yeah, absolutely. I would love that. As for me, it’s, you know, the story everyone’s got a story is actually one of the things that I tell my TEDx curation team all the time, everyone’s got a story. Everyone has a special magic or touch or ability to reveal a part of the universe to you in a way that you didn’t understand it before. And therefore, as a result, I think everybody has the ability to make us smarter, wiser, more connected to the world. For me, I would say, if I were to sort of pinpoint that gift of mine, it would be to love and study humanity and human nature. I was born in Iran, so I’ve lived a number of different continents, number of different countries. I was born in. Iran during the well shortly before the revolution and the Iran Iraq War. So I grew up during the war. I grew up during the immediate aftermath of the revolution, which was a very turbulent time to be in Iran. Folks weren’t even really used to the Islamic regime yet and still not sure whether to embrace it push against it. I mean, the revolution was so new, nobody really knew what was going to happen. Going to happen, and then suddenly all these people were being massacred. So it was a very, very strange time. And then the war, about a million people died during the Iran Iraq War, really, really heavy missile attacks in the city of Tehran. It was sort of similar to modern day Kyiv, I suppose, in that sense, and I immigrated. When we immigrated, we didn’t immigrate to the United States, we immigrated to Canada. And that’s right, I was 11 years old when we immigrated, and I had just wrapped fifth grade, but we didn’t really have fifth grade, because we were in bomb shelters most of fifth grade. So really, I had a fourth grade education in Canada. I don’t speak a word of English, and I have no real economic means whatsoever, but I’m there, and I’m a documented person, which is massive, right? You’ve already sort of received the Charlie and the Chocolate Factory golden ticket. Yeah, yes. And then on top of that, I was so lucky, because we ended up in mixed income housing, which actually exposed me to a really wonderful elementary school and middle school, so I was getting a decent education in a safe environment, albeit nobody could understand what I was saying, which was rather challenging, and there was a lot of bullying issues, et cetera, et cetera. Eventually I made my way to the States, United States, I ended up actually kind of falling in love with this country. Don’t get me wrong. I think it’s very easy to see the warts when you’ve experienced other countries, including other democracies, but I think it’s also really easy to love this country and love what it could be. So I have been passionate, politically active person. It’s there’s this joke that Iranians have, what do you call a politician who doesn’t get any money for their work? And the answer is, activist. So

Maria Ross 07:19

yeah, yeah, 100%

Shermin Kruse 07:23

so I had to pay the bill somehow. And growing up with that immigrant mindset, mentality, I went to law school, which I love, actually I love. I did it for a really long time before I retired. 17 years I practiced law. Throughout that whole time, I was really dedicated to my community, a lot of writing, a lot of speaking, a lot of IDEA curation,

Maria Ross 07:44

which is kind of real quick. What kind of law did you practice

Shermin Kruse 07:47

complex commercial litigation, primarily in the fashion sector? Wow, so it would be so I worked primarily for the LVMH group. So the Louis Vuitton mo at Hennessy house was my primary client. Most of our litigation was against other big names, marks, as we call them, right? So it might be LV suing Dooney and Burke, for example, right? Okay, so, yeah. So it’s like a nine or 10 figure piece of litigation involving international parties and usually involving federal law, because it would involve Mark law, right? So it was really fun. I mean, really exciting for a long time,

Maria Ross 08:27

yeah? So you get into law, you’re here and you’re working, and then take us through kind of fast forward to where you’re delivering a TED talk about empathy, yeah. How did that? Where’s that bridge there?

Shermin Kruse 08:38

Though, I have been studying human nature since I was a child, and in university, I studied neuroscience and philosophy, neuropsychology, to be precise. Then as an attorney, what I did for a living was advocacy. It was I had to learn how to convince people to think the way I wanted them to think. And Maria, I couldn’t do it by slamming my fist on the table, yelling, shouting, even if I wanted to, which I didn’t, because it wasn’t true to me. Honestly, it probably wouldn’t have even worked for me. I don’t know that it would have been successful. Some people are, you know, some people can yell and scream and use force and listen it well, yeah, best way to live your life by power. It’s, well, it’s the command and

Maria Ross 09:27

control model, and it gets you compliance, but it doesn’t get you engagement. And I’m gonna link in the show notes, because you’re reminding me of a great interview I had with Robin dreeke, who was a former FBI counter intelligence agent, and his role was to turn enemy folks into spies to help the cause of democracy and help the cause of freedom. And he did that through empathy, not through coercion, not through torture, not through you know, but just you know. How do you really see people and find common ground and understand what. Important to them so that you can find a way forward together, and that kind of engagement breeds so much loyalty versus just compliance, which, yeah, might work in the short term. It’s like parenting, right? Punishment can work in the short term, but in the long term are is what is the relationship like? So I love that 100%

Shermin Kruse 10:18

and so what you’ve just identified with parenting that is an ongoing, long term relationship, right? If you want to just zoom in and zoom out, if you’re going to zoom in, obliterate an enemy and zoom out, the strategy can be different, although, interestingly, empathy works for that too, but it but most of our negotiations, most of our power dynamics, most of our relationships are long term. Very rarely do we zoom in and zoom out, even in a corporate business context, it is your clients, your partners, your vendors, your customers, your stakeholders, right your board, your CEOs, your So, these shareholders, these are people to whom with whom you have a long standing relationship, and to whom you owe a long term duty to engage in that relationship. And so the sustainability of the relationship is key. It’s really interesting what you bring up about the FBI, because a lot of the work I do is utilized by the FBI, even your typical SWAT interrogation unit, because it’s most likely to yield information. And the FBI has learned that utilizing these tools and therefore revealing more information from these is power. Information is power. Totally more knowledge. If you’re gonna talk to anybody, it’s because you want them to tell you something, right? So you’re doing the

Maria Ross 11:42

because I definitely want us to get into talking about the book so really quickly. So when you did your TED talk about empathy, tell us about that and tell us about what you’re hoping to bring to people through that work.

Shermin Kruse 11:57

Well, my most recent TEDx talk was my third so there’s been a spectrum of empathy related talks given from me for the last 10 years or so. This one is among the continuum of that evolution. This one specifically is on stoic empathy, because as I continued to refine my ideas on empathy, and I’ll talk to you listeners about this in a minute, but focusing on the divergence, distinction and spectrum between cognitive empathy and emotional empathy, I started to recognize the tools of stoicism in that Very spectrum, and controlling where we are within that spectrum, and helping find empathy for ourselves, etc, etc. And so that’s what became stoic empathy, which is the current book, which

Maria Ross 12:52

honestly, what is, what is stoic empathy? Okay, so, okay.

Shermin Kruse 12:55

So let me just say it literally circles back to 2530 years ago, whenever it was that I graduated college with my degree in philosophy and neuropsychology. So stoic empathy is the ability to gain power in the world, ethically and consistent with our value system, utilizing control over ourselves by using stoicism and influence over others by using empathy, actually combining the power of self control with the power of empathic influence to gain momentum in a world even if the odds are against us, but in a way that helps with our sustained relationships and long term relationships, right? Without harm, because a lot of folks, you know, they want to win the battle, but they don’t want to lose the war, right? You want your kid to put the iPad down, but you don’t want to have a lifelong of strained relationships with your kid, right? You want your vendor to agree to this new price point you want your partner to engage with you going forward in the post merger integration from that point on, as opposed to just agreeing to your deal terms, right? So that is the methodology. So it is designed to not harm your relationships, which in a power struggle, let’s be candid, is, yeah, that’s the word struggle. That’s the struggle. Yeah, right. Struggle. The

Maria Ross 14:29

reason for the use of that word, yeah, absolutely. And I just want to talk about this because you mentioned that stoicism and empathy are often seen as opposing forces. And I love what you’re saying here, because this speaks exactly to what I have in my latest book around the five pillars of being both an effective and an empathetic leader. Self awareness is the first one, and it’s not necessarily meant to be sequential, but you can’t really get very far with the rest unless you have self awareness and you have. That mastery of self, and then the second one is self care, where you’re replenishing your tank so you’re showing up as the best version of yourself, fully grounded, fully present, so that you don’t take on other points of view with defensiveness and fear. So I’m seeing a lot of strains of what you’re talking about in terms of stoicism, of those preliminary preparations to then engage in an empathic connection with someone and be able to see their point of view, understand their context, get curious and ask more questions, because you’re not in such a self preservation mode. So can you educate us a little bit about the principles of stoicism and how that feeds into this idea of mastering your own emotional regulation and self regulation. So

Shermin Kruse 15:49

I would say spot on, and stoicism would be, in my opinion, the best way to achieve your first and second pill, because it’s more that it’s the how right. How are you going to get that self understanding? How are you going to gain that self mastery? How are you going to gain that self control? And the pillars of stoicism? I mean, it is a 2000 year old philosophical belief system that borders on a spiritual way of life. So, you know, there’s so many books and mountains of research dedicated to it, but really, at the end of the day, it’s very simple, it, and it really gets boiled down to one principle, and that is the dichotomy of control. It is understanding. And it sort of goes back to, I’m not a woman of faith, but I but if you are. It goes back to that sort of Christian saying, Give me the grace or wisdom to understand what’s in my control. Oh, the Serenity Prayer.

Maria Ross 16:49

The Serenity

Shermin Kruse 16:50

Prayer, that’s what it is. The serenity prayer, to accept what I cannot control, but to change what I can. And the wisdom to know the difference, yeah, wisdom to know the difference, and with that, and this is a pivotal component of stoicism and empathy, especially as they combine, is how that changes, because our control in this world is not a constant. The things we control are not constants. They change. They evolve with our power in this world. They evolve with our circumstances, with our Dynamics, with our wealth, with our race. You know, they could change from day to day for any particular I think it’s also and this is something that I haven’t really heard talked about, but it’s the wisdom to know that is not fixed, but that is where it is today, right? And there needs to be an acceptance that comes along with what it is today, but then there also needs to be that hope and that understanding of what it could be tomorrow, right?

Maria Ross 17:54

You know, what I love about what you’re saying is I do a lot of work for myself about understanding my own emotions. And you know, I might be an empathy expert, but probably, you would probably say the same thing, I’m not always an expert at empathy in every waking moment, because I’m not always my best self in every waking moment. So even experts have to work at this and practice. But I love what you’re saying because it sparks for me something that I’ve been working on and telling myself and trying to help my son with as well, who’s 10 and a half, is that emotions are temporary, and that when we feel anger, when we feel hatred, when we feel frustration, when we feel sadness, telling ourselves that this, not that this too shall pass, because it’s we really want to acknowledge what we’re In when we’re in it, but this idea that our emotions are not fixed either, and I kind of see that in the same way that you’re talking about control, because I might have a command of the situation with this particular team at this particular moment, in this particular company, in this particular market, but there’s so many forces at play every day, every moment, that change things. And so it’s kind of linked to being present and having gratitude in the moment when you’re aware of the control and the influence you have, and leveraging that to its best ability. Kind of going off a little bit on a tangent, but you really sparked, for me, that idea, this is

Shermin Kruse 19:20

such a wonderful conversation. And Maria, this is exactly what I was hoping to do today. I was hoping to really dig in with you, because you have this beautiful way of looking at the world that is so extraordinary and so broad and interconnected, and it’s fascinating to have someone like that sitting in front of you. I mean, we’re sitting in zoom in front of each other, but sitting in front of you and then be able to dissect the notion, here’s the a lot of the roots of what you’re saying. So a lot of the roots of what you’re saying is nothing is fixed, suffering, pain, even life, right? Even life. And this that goes back to the stoic concept of. Mantomori, but it goes back to also Hamlet and Islam and Christianity, and put some and all of these faiths and the idea that nothing is fixed, even pain, even suffering and even life right, everything is transient. And more importantly, this transient experience that I am undergoing is not only something that is happening to me and I am a passive recipient of it, but rather it is something with which I can engage fully and therefore influence, maybe even control, depending on what it is, right? Most certainly influence. So the Greeks and the Romans thought of emotions as in two parts. There’s the sort of the primary part, which is your immediate feeling, and then there’s the secondary part, which is what it is after you have cognitively evaluated it, right? Modern day neurophysiologists and neuropsychologists divide up emotions into five parts, neurophysiological, psychological, behavioral, emotional, motivational, etc, etc. So here’s the thing, you can dissect an emotion, and by dissecting an emotion, you can understand the emotion better, and therefore understand better how and what aspects of that emotion you have control over, and how much control you have over how you express that emotion, right? Because you might be terrified, but you might be very cautious of how you show that terror to your children,

21:41

right, right.

Maria Ross 21:41

Or to anyone, to your neighbor, to your spouse, to your employees, like anyone. And that’s the thing of you know, this is a constant conversation in our house where it’s, I’m, you know, I’m sorry that I snapped at you, because what I was feeling was frustration, or I was feeling trapped, or I was feeling these other things that caused me to react in a way that you read as anger or as indictment. And so we’re always kind of talking about this, and I think about workplaces both good and bad, that I’ve been part of, and those leaders who, you know, I don’t say this lightly, I had two leaders that were psychologically abusive, and I don’t say that with drama or, you know, hyperbole. And I think about knowing what I know now, about studying empathy and about researching leadership and getting older and wiser, is wow. What was going on for that person that they thought that was an appropriate way to react or respond in that moment, and how hurt must they have been, or how insecure must they have been. And you know, what could people do in that kind of situation to help someone through that? If it is a work situation or it is a colleague situation, or whatever it’s, what can we do to kind of center ourselves and separate the emotion that we think we’re feeling from someone else with what is reality of what is going on for them?

Shermin Kruse 23:12

Well, yes, and how much of that reality are they even observing, and how much of that is that is totally decision at that time, because even those of us who study this material, we have caught ourselves behaving impulsively before or automatically right? One of the ways in which I respond to things automatically all the time is I’m still very overcome by loud, sudden sounds. A lot of that is because growing up and the missile attacks, etc, etc. But if I hear something vociferously falling right behind me, I jump right. I jump. And it’s not because I’m afraid, it’s because I’m an alert. I’m in a state of alert. My body has learned loud sound. Be careful. It could be a kid jumping up saying, boo, it is smallest thing, and I would still jump up in an unnatural way, almost because of the way my body responds to whatever trauma it has stored in me. So the other thing to often consider is, look, they might not even have the capacity or ability, or the training or the time to even reflect this could just be habitual. And if it is habitual for them, how much control then do I have? And maybe the answer is, I have a really interesting

Maria Ross 24:34

question for you based on that, yeah, and I go off script a little here, when you’re faced with a leader or a manager or even a colleague like that, that you suspect they’re not even conscious of the impact of their reactions or their behavior. Do you have any advice on where to start, where, how you can appropriately have a conversation with that person depending on the power. Dynamics that would actually be influential in helping them recognize that maybe there’s some work to do without it sounding judgmental or shameful. I know that’s a lot to pack into, like one conversation, but based on your work, what would you advise someone listening that’s going, Oh, wow, I wish I could show that person that what they’re doing is actually harmful, sure.

Shermin Kruse 25:21

So my advice would be and this advice would apply every single time. Start with stoicism. Start with gaining control over yourself, because when they’re behaving in that way, you would be well within your rights to be defensive, to be angry, to be judgmental, to not have control over your own words. If you are able to create space, literally in the seconds of time that pass, and be able to reflect and think cognitively and clearly about the situation, you are far more likely, whatever the answers are, to come up with them in that moment and acknowledge that the answer might be at this time, on this day, given the power dynamics, this might not be in your control. So then that’s to me, you don’t do anything right. You might believe that your commitment to justice or your value system, or whatever your goals are in that moment obligate you to do or say something in a manner that is appropriate and consistent with your way of thinking toward the world. Or you might not, but if you do, you should know what is the likelihood of impact? What is the likelihood I’m going to get fired? And if little Timmy needs his braces or needs his treatments for his medical condition, and I need to keep this job. Maybe I don’t want to risk it. Maybe I do want to risk it, and that is how I show my commitment to this value, but let that be an informed choice and not something you accidentally fell in too, because you just had to say something, yeah, right, yeah. Let it be an informed choice, so that when you make a sacrifice, which you will in life, will you will sacrifice material comfort, you will sacrifice all kinds of wins in order to stand up for your principles, hopefully right, especially leading a life of empathy. So then when you make that choice, you are prepared for the consequences that follow, and it was informed and delivered right now. That doesn’t mean that it was the right thing to do, either you could reevaluate later and say, right, you know, maybe I should have done this differently, or thought about this differently. I learned. I’ll do it differently next time. But the more aware and thoughtful you are, the more strategic you are, the more space you’re able to create between the stimuli and the response, right? That space? That is where your willpower sits. Yeah, that is where your control sits. I had

Maria Ross 28:01

a guest on, and I’ll link to this in the show notes as well. Chris L Johnson and we talked about the power of the pause for leaders. And just that. I mean, it’s something I work on all the time in my you know, 52 years, I’m still working on the like recognizing the physiological symptoms of me losing myself given a certain stimulus, and take a breath, take a pause, and then think about what you want your reaction. And I will say, you know, given our current climate of the world and of our country, that’s been some of the best advice I’ve heard from activists, from people that say, Okay, this is all meant to distract and get us all lathered up. Let’s all take a pause. Let’s take a breath, and then let’s figure out the best way forward, because now we’ll be engaging our cognitive functions, our executive skills, to decide the best way forward. And I just think that’s so important in the micro moments like you’re talking about, and in the macro moments as well,

Shermin Kruse 29:03

absolutely. And I love the example you just provided, which is in the context of activism, just taking a pause, reframing, before we turn to strategizing. And I love what you just said now, which is in the micro moments, in the context of a conversation. I call it the dynamic pause, or the tool of silence, right? Yeah, and all of the various features of this incredible tool, yeah, right, yeah. All that it can earn for you in that moment is absolutely incredible. But one of the things that ends up happening Maria is the more you practice this, and the more aware you are of how you’re acting, and the more intentional you are of how you’re acting, what you’re feeling, how you’re expressing what you’re feeling, etc, the slower time moves for you. Yeah, time is relative. Time could be moving at a consistent pace for someone else, but be moving much slower, like you’re Neo. From the matrix or something. Yeah, the little bullets are coming your way and able to move your body. But seriously, though you’re able to, know slow it down for yourself,

Maria Ross 30:09

you can the more present you are, there’s an expert, Laura, I want to say her name is Laura vanderkamp, and she talks about the power of time, of you actually accounting and keeping a time journal. She’s kept it for years, and it’s kept her sane, and it helps you, number one, remember things more because you’re writing things down, but it also helps slow down time for you to know where your time is going every hour. It’s an amazing practice, but, yeah, it’s this idea of I remember talking to another guest I had on the show who’s also a friend of mine, Renee Mehdi. She’s a mindfulness expert, and she spoke about, I don’t know if she spoke on the podcast interview or just to me personally, but she spoke about going to a silent retreat, and how life changing that was because when her family came to pick her up, she said it felt like I was moving through molasses. I felt like I couldn’t keep up with their conversation. I couldn’t keep up with formulating my thoughts. And it lasted for a few days, I know, and she said it was wild, and that was at the beginning of her mindfulness training journey. And I just thought, wow, what would that be like to just feel like you could actually, literally, like you’re saying the matrix, the great coming at you. Can I also ask you to share you’ve already kind of shared one here, but some other practical tools for building influence and emotional regulation. So one or two of those actionable strategies, it sounds like taking the pause. But is there a strategy you have for getting someone to take the pause in the heat of the moment?

Shermin Kruse 31:47

Okay, so I’m happy to move on and talk about some other tools, but we can also just dissect the pause and the silence there. It’s so in terms of a strategic manner of approaching that really the best way is a reassurance in the knowledge that silence is not submission, pause is not acceptance, that even understanding is not agreement, no, right, no. And because I find so often, I mean, I don’t I was a debater, and then I studied philosophy and psychology, and then I was a lawyer, and I was a litigator, and I was taught to argue for a living. I got paid lots of money to anticipate what people were going to say before they even finished talking so that and having a prepared response ready to go. And there’s a time and a place for that, and there’s a there’s a way that can be utilized. And I’ll tell you that time and place is not most of life.

Maria Ross 32:44

Yeah, it works really well in a courtroom, yeah, the big tournament, yeah. But for

Shermin Kruse 32:50

most of life, if we’re just waiting for our turn to speak and oh, yeah, right, and using all of our mental energy to formulate our next thought, it’s gonna be really hard to force that silence. Yes, we already know what we want to get, what we want to say. Now we’re just waiting around and

Maria Ross 33:10

we’re not listening, and we’re not actually listening to the context of the other well, I talk about this all the time, that empathy does not mean you agree with someone. It just means you’re getting curious about their point of view and their perspective, and you could still walk away saying, I don’t agree with you, but I understand where you’re coming from. I had this with someone years ago in my own life, where we disagreed about a certain political issue, and I was surprised that they had this perspective. I’m sure a lot of people can relate to this these days, but then I heard him out and I thought, wow, what you said makes a lot of sense. And I actually understand that point of view. I understand how you would get to agreeing with this. I still don’t agree with it, but man, that I never thought of it that way. Well.

Shermin Kruse 33:55

And Maria, your analysis there, if you go back to your conversation with your FBI guy, if you can’t understand where they’re coming from, how are you going to change it? Yeah, how are you going to reach them? How are you going to connect with them on a level that works within their framework and their logic, right, and their moral values and so so I think step one would be taking that step Okay, step two would be, and this is important, there’s a big difference between a silent retreat and a dynamic pause. A Silent Retreat is nine days of pure listening, okay, even just to your freaking backache, which is what I find most terrifying about it, sitting there and just listen. You can’t even write. You can’t, you know, it’s just listening. A dynamic pause is different. It is in this moment I’m allow. Doing my processing of verbal linguistics to slow down. It doesn’t really even stop all the way to slow down so that I can extract more auditory information from my environment. That then gives me more stimuli than I had before, because now I’m picking up tone, tenor, body language, mood, the birds I couldn’t hear before, the traffic accident across the street, whatever it might be, right? I’m picking up all this additional stimuli that I didn’t have before, which gives me greater armor to form my strategic response going forward. And I’m giving myself a second, not just to regain that additional stimuli, but to gain calm over my thoughts, right? And maybe I’m making the other person a little bit uncomfortable, right, not in a horrible way, but in a I also want them to think very clearly about what it is they’re saying. And if we’re spitting back and forth beyond each other. They are also not thinking about what they’re saying. Yeah, so if I give create that space, they, too are now forced to deal with that silence right after they just said what they said, and they could have an opportunity to re evaluate what they said, right? And maybe they’ll double down, maybe they’ll backtrack, maybe they’ll act like they’re doubling down, but actually

Maria Ross 36:26

backtracking right. And

Shermin Kruse 36:28

maybe through your silence, you could actually decipher that distinction,

Maria Ross 36:32

you know, what you’re making me think of saying this the other alternative that we never talk about. And in all my leadership workshops, my keynotes, I always talk about this about, you know, empathy is not agreeing. It’s being able to listen and hear the other person’s context, and, like you said, getting all those other auditory and nonverbal cues from the environment. But the possibility that we don’t leave ourselves open to is that there could be a reevaluation of our initial stance. So the goal of empathy is not conversion. It’s not coercion. I always say that, however, listening to someone’s context and hearing their point of view could be so compelling to you as to possibly make you rethink your decision or your stance, and we have to not be afraid of that. It doesn’t mean it always happens. And yeah, you know, there’s some conversations specifically I’m thinking of where you don’t want that to happen. But you know, in a budget discussion, in a strategic decision meeting, it’s opening yourself up to the fact that you might hear, if you listen, you might hear a compelling argument that changes your mind, and that’s okay.

Shermin Kruse 37:45

So I would describe that as a form of stoic courage, because it is that is very difficult, and

Maria Ross 37:55

of course, I don’t know how to do it. I just talk about it. I don’t know how to

Shermin Kruse 38:00

do this. You could do it with the budget, right? Maybe you can’t do it vis a vis you know, your deeply held moral beliefs exactly, but there’s a whole world between the budget and your deeply held right universe. And so we could practice at it. But here’s the tricky part, it’s difficult to maintain yourself in a place where you’re constantly refining and reevaluating your understanding of the world without insecurity, with confidence and with a really strong grounding in knowing who you are, right? That’s a difficult balance. A lot of people who we know who go back and forth and back and forth, they were either lying to begin with, or they have no real convictions, or, you know exactly, yeah and so. And then there’s most other people who just don’t go, don’t change their minds at all, which is, can you imagine if five years from today, you’re the same person you were today? You grew not at all? Right?

Maria Ross 39:06

Right? Not good. Yeah, I always say I was like a hot mess in my 20s, and so glad I didn’t get married back then. Yeah, no, it’s, I think it’s true, but I think it’s just something that, like you said, that’s sort of like next level that’s like, you know, Jedi mastery level of being able to have those conversations. And I’m not, let me be clear, listeners, I’m not there yet.

Shermin Kruse 39:28

So we could practice at the budget meeting. We could practice at

Maria Ross 39:31

the budget meeting. I mean, you know, honestly, you know, where I practice is with my kid. Yeah, there’s sometimes that he you know, there’s different boundaries we’ve set and rules we’ve put in place. And when he articulates things in a certain way, and I’m actually listening, I do tell him like that’s a fair point. And sometimes I will go back to my husband and say, maybe we need to rethink this. You know, I mean, sometimes we do, sometimes we don’t, but having that can. Connection with someone could potentially, you know, lead to it doesn’t always have to lead to a third outcome. That’s a compromise that no one gets what they want, right? It could lead to something where, just as much as you want to bring someone along with you, again, I’m talking about in like a work situation, they could bring you along with them. They could.

Shermin Kruse 40:21

And one of the things that really helps with that, and I love that you use the example of 10 year old child, is deep inherent trust in good will of that individual right, which is not always present, right? And you know, we must acknowledge that, of course, especially in corporate settings, right? But when you know it’s there. I mean, I say this to my husband all the time when we’re in a conflict situation, just give me the benefit of the doubt here, it’s been 20 years. I mean, you know

Maria Ross 40:55

who I am exactly, well, and that’s why all of this is so interconnected, all of these emotional intelligence skills and this idea of creating trust and creating psychological safety in the workplace, you want to create these relationships where you can have this ebb and flow and it’s safe and it feels like okay, you know, share. I’m not 100% on board with you, but I’m willing to trust you, yes, because you’ve given me some good points to think about, and that’s also the relationship we can build with our managers, so that we can have a back and forth with them, and they can hopefully let go of a little bit of command and control and be listening to our input and our perspective. But also, you know, the other way around of managers for their people, and when you get to know your people, and you work at building that trust that isn’t just transactionally related, right? This is why this work is so important in the workplace, and it just boggles my mind. The leaders, you know, the numbers dwindling, but the percentage of leaders who think that empathy has no place in the workplace, it’s because they don’t understand what empathy actually is. They think it’s something else. They think it’s people pleasing or caving in or coddling. So that’s always my first cue of if you have a leader that says they don’t believe empathy has a place in the workplace, it’s like, Let me have a conversation with them, right? Tell them what you really let’s parse out what they think it means, right? So this is so great share I’d love to just kind of close with maybe a final thought or a gem, or a direction, an intention that you want to give to our listeners as they navigate this balance of understanding how to bring in some stoic empathy into their relationships and into their interactions. I

Shermin Kruse 42:39

love that I would say my closing remark is always what I say to myself first thing in the morning and right before I go to bed at night, which is tomorrow’s another day, and I can do this better every day. And some days I do a really terrible job, and some days, I’ll tell you I’m kicking butt out there, right? Totally either way, tomorrow is another day, and it’s a chance to do it all over again. When we’re talking about emotional regulation, especially emotional control, this idea that I can’t help it is not accurate, at least not entirely accurate, right? There might be some things, and we talked about this earlier, that are trauma rooted, that are habitual responses. But even those, with enough time and enough practice, you can gain control over them. And this is where I suppose the final tool I’ll close on this is that where I discuss is the tool of Memento Mori,

Maria Ross 43:42

which is you will die, right? The

Shermin Kruse 43:47

Greco Roman stoic ideology of you will die, which means you are not dead, which means you are alive, right? And you have another chance, but it won’t last forever. The transience of this life, the transience of everything, and therefore the exponential meaning of it all, because it ends, because if it never ended, it would have no such meaning, right? Right puts on us both the ability to gracefully forgive the mistakes of the day and take them seriously enough to do them a little bit better tomorrow, right? And keep working toward that, and keep working toward that. And so this is what I want. And I tell my kids all the time, I want this combination of grace and forgiveness, empathy for yourself with a dedication to a resilient mindset that is put toward growth. It’s a combination, because if we’re forgiving ourselves way too much, we’re never growing, we’re never pushing ourselves beyond our comfort zones, we’re just staying in our little bubbles and saying. It’s okay to be safe and never feel threatened, okay. I mean, if that’s the way you want to live your life, but you can do bigger. You can do better by embracing a little bit outside of that comfort zone. And you have to be willing. You have to have the stoic courage to be willing to open yourself up to that while still having that grace within yourself for the imperfections that come along the way. Oh

Maria Ross 45:27

my gosh, so so good share. I This conversation was worth the wait. I’m so excited, and I’m so honored to share you with my audience, folks. The book is called stoic empathy. Make sure you check it out. I will have all the links in the show notes on how you can get the book and how you can connect with share. But for folks on the go, can you share with us? Where’s the best place to find out more about you and your work?

Shermin Kruse 45:49

100% probably my website, sherminkruse.com, so that’s my full name followed by a.com Easy to find. I am on LinkedIn. I’m not easy to reach on LinkedIn. There’s just way too many people, but I promise I’ll get to you sooner or later on LinkedIn, if you but if you go through my website, you’re more Yeah, you’re more likely to get a quicker response,

Maria Ross 46:11

yeah. For anyone exercising right now, that website is S, H, E, R, M, I, N, K, R, U, S, E, so share. It’s been wonderful to connect with you again, and I’m so glad we’re in each other’s orbits. I love your work. Thank you for your insights today. Thank you for the conversation, and thank you everyone for listening to another episode of the empathy edge podcast. If you like what you heard, you know what to do, rate, review and share it with a friend or a colleague, and until next time, please remember that cash flow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be kind. For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy. Visit the empathy edge.com there you can listen to past episodes, access show notes and free resources. Book me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes, insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slice Maria, never forget, empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place.

Cash flow, creativity, and compassion are not mutually exclusive™

Moe Carrick: Redefining Leadership Beyond Gender B.S.

Masculine traits. Feminine traits. Can we please stop gendering leadership skills and focus instead on the human traits that will enable us to thrive?

Today I speak with culture and leadership expert Moe Carrick about gender traits in leadership. We discuss the traditional leadership narratives and the negative impact that has on both men and women in the workplace. We talk about the crisis for men and boys right now and why men are falling behind in all sectors. Moe shares the difference between emotionality and emotional intelligence and how we can help debunk outdated myths of masculinity. And she shares some great stories from past clients and what they were able to achieve as a leadership team in tough times when they embraced emotional intelligence and vulnerability. We dissect the current backlash toward more “masculine” energy in the workplace, which will only hinder our innovation and success, and the role women leaders can play to encourage healthier, more emotionally grounded leadership.

To access the episode transcript, please scroll down below.

Key Takeaways:

Gender has nothing to do with being a successful leader. While some traits may be considered more masculine or feminine in energy, skills are not gendered – they are all human traits.
There is a difference between emotionality and emotional intelligence. Emotionality is unmetabolized emotional expression. Emotional intelligence is a source of data helping us navigate the emotionality.
Everyone needs to resist their own internal messaging about what good leadership looks like – it is not command and control or blaming and shaming. It is empathy and collaboration.

“If we’re going to encourage male vulnerability and male emotions in the same ways we experience and give women permission to express feelings, we need to be prepared to not jump into fixing and solving what they’re struggling with.” — Moe Carrick

Episode References:

The Empathy Edge: Pam Fox Rollin: How to Grow Your Group Into a Team
The Athena Doctrine By John Gerzema and Michael D’Antonio
Atlas of the Heart by Brené Brown
Richard Reeves: Institute for Men and Boys
Suits

From Our Partner:

Go to sparkeffect.com/edge now and download your complimentary Professional and Organizational Alignment Review today.

About Moe Carrick, CEO and Culture and Leadership Pioneer

Moe Carrick is a pioneer in workplace culture and leadership, known for her award-winning frameworks that have helped companies like Nike, Reddit, and Amazon improve engagement, reduce burnout, and drive performance. A TEDx speaker and bestselling author, Moe’s work has transformed businesses across industries for over two decades. She specializes in creating environments where people thrive, rooted in her deep expertise in leadership, human connection, and innovative workplace practices.

Connect with Moe:

Moementum, Inc: moementum.com

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/moecarrick

Instagram: instagram.com/moecarrick

Culture Pulse Check: moementum.com/people-culture-pulse-check

WorkMatters Kit: moementum.kit.com/workmatters

TedX: Rethinking Women’s Role in Defining Masculinity

TedX: Workplaces Fit for Humans

Connect with Maria:

Get Maria’s books on empathy: Red-Slice.com/books

Learn more about Maria’s work: Red-Slice.com

Hire Maria to speak: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross

Take the LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy

LinkedIn: Maria Ross

Instagram: @redslicemaria

Facebook: Red Slice

Threads: @redslicemaria

FULL TRANSCRIPT:

Moe Carrick 02:56

Thank you, Maria. Thank you so much for having me so you are a trailblazer

Maria Ross 03:00

in workplace culture. You’ve, you know, we heard in your bio, you’ve worked with brands such as Nike and Amazon and Reddit, helping them improve employee engagement. So tell us first before we get dive into our juicy topic today, what brought you to this work? What makes you so passionate about it?

Moe Carrick 03:19

Yeah, I mean, I’m passionate about it because I work, and I’m from the house of work, you know, I started working when I was 14, and I don’t know that I really stopped, even through the birth of three children and divorce and remarriage and cancer and all the things. I really believe that we spend more time at work over the course of a life than we do anywhere else, and we deserve to thrive there. So I think, you know, early on, my work as an internal consultant and external consultant to organizations very much focused on how to help them get results, which still matters, but also it’s my strong belief that we get better results when people are thriving at work, and it’s a win win all the way around. So a lot of my, most of all, well, all of my writing and my talks, my content and my and my work is really focused on how employers and leaders and systems can activate the talents of their people for success so that everybody wins. And you know, ultimately, I’m, you know, personally, interested in reducing job misery, because there’s too much out there, too much.

Maria Ross 04:24

I mean, yeah, that’s, you know, the thing when I began down the path of this work as well, from brand strategy work, but my change management work, even early in my career, it’s we do. We spend the bulk of our time at work. And so when I started in the empathy work, it was, why not make it a place where people can thrive and do their best work? And, you know, we heard, we heard so many attacks for the millennials and Gen Z about how they were trying to change workplace culture. And I was like, This is good for all of us, like they’re just asking for the things that we were too scared to ask for, right? Right?

Moe Carrick 04:57

Well, absolutely. And also, as you know. As a brand strategist. When we get culture right, it illuminates and enhances our brand, because there’s thinner and thinner barriers between our customers, our employees, and our identity as an organization, which is also how we sell, how we deliver against our mission, etc. So it all weaves up in the same direction? Yeah,

Maria Ross 05:21

I always say that culture and brand are two sides of the same coin, and if you really want to be an authentic brand, a believable brand and a sustainable brand, you have to make sure your culture is walking your talk as well. So I love it. Okay, so let’s talk a little bit about gender. Because I get asked this always, you know, things like, are women more empathetic than men? You know, am I going to be seen as too feminine if I have as a leader embrace empathy? And I was sharing with you the story of how my first empathy book came to be the empathy edge, which was about empathy as a competitive advantage, and the fact that I had an agent who was interested but wanted me to change the book to be about feminine traits being strategic and competitive. And I said no, because my whole point was I was trying to de gender, the very human trait of empathy, because men are just as responsible for embracing it as women, and it’s a human trait. And when we give ourselves these excuses of saying, Well, this trait and this leadership quality belongs to this gender, and this leadership quality belongs to that gender. That’s where we we kind of give people identity crises, right when we do that. So talk to us a little bit about what is going on in the workplace. When we’re hearing all about we need more masculine energy in the workplace. How do you see the different gender traits playing out in the workplace, and what’s your perspective on how you balance those for a healthy culture? Yeah,

Moe Carrick 06:53

yeah. Such a good question, and there’s so much there. I think for me personally, I’m sensing with things like what you recently heard from Mark Zuckerberg around we need more masculine energy in the workforce. I think that’s actually very consistent with what we’re seeing on a meta, really global political level, which is a hearkening for what was once, for the way that things used to be. And you know, we’re seeing that in every nation, not only here, as we see rise of authoritarianism, whatever your politics are, we’re definitely seeing some leaning towards a harkening back to the way it used to be. And one of the things that I think impacts the work we’re talking about here is that we have historical notions of what good leadership look like that are biased through a gender lens. And I always think about the work. I’m sure you’re familiar with the work of Michael de Antonio and no, yes, and John girzima The Athena doctrine, which was a huge, big study, 100,000 research subjects looking at what are the important traits for leaders in the next 50 years. And then they asked the question, which of these traits do you see as masculine or feminine? And we know that the majority of traits that people saw as critical for success in business and organizations for the next 50 years fell also in the feminine categories of how they were described. So I think we’ve had attribution errors around what good leadership looks like that are based on historically, who were the leaders, right? And the leaders were men. They still are largely men in the C suite. Even though we’ve made advances, we’re still behind, and so we have there’s an enculturation around that now for me, unfortunately, that also means that we’re we have to look at the way that men and women are taught to be emotionally intelligent, and we are taught really different ways to be emotionally intelligent. Jennifer bosom, who’s the University of Florida researcher, talks about how men are given a much more narrow band of emotional expression, absolutely, and they’re really only given permission as little boys here in Western society to express one emotion, which is that of anger, and women are given almost the complete opposite messaging, which is, there’s one emotion we can’t express, which is anger. So when we look at that, it makes sense. Yeah, we have, we have, we have genderized what good leadership looks like, and that right now today, we have sort of almost like a whimsical look back of like, If only it could be clear like it was in the industrial revolution. And I think that’s what we’re getting when we say we need more masculine energy. If we think of masculine energy as things like decisiveness and logic over emotion and hierarchy, then yeah, that there’s some of that that has been attributed to masculine which doesn’t mean only men do that, of course, but it’s masculine energy. And I think it’s like we’re past that now, yeah, and I think we’d be past that now

Maria Ross 09:41

well, and also, you know, I’ve said this before on this show, women don’t always have a lock on it, either, and I, you know, two of my most psychologically abusive bosses, my listeners have heard this a million times were women, and some of my most empathetic bosses were men. So we need to let go of this notion that I get. To what’s the word I’m looking for shirk responsibility for being emotionally connected with my workers because I’m a man now that doesn’t mean I’m equipped, like to your point, if I haven’t been taught how to engage with empathy while still being decisive, being clear, making tough decisions. And, you know, that’s where I talk about my both and leadership all the time, that we don’t have to choose one over the other, which seems to be the false narrative that a lot of men are telling themselves. And also, you know, quite a few women are saying, I can’t be emotionally connected. I can’t be a good listener, because if I am, they’re gonna say I’m weak. So we’ve got to get rid of this notion, because we are whole human beings. And what I love about this is there is a business case to be made. There is data, there is research that shows that when you are an empathetic leader and you are compassionate, you can regulate your emotions. You can make tough decisions with empathy and support people and actively listen and put ego aside and all of those things. There’s a host of benefits that your team and your organization experience, including increased engagement, innovation, retention, loyalty, and then to your point earlier from the external point of view, when you can then carry that empathy through to your customers and your clients. You get higher revenues. You get better customer lifetime value. You get customer evangelists that talk about you because the bar is so low absolutely and they’re treated nicely. So totally. Talk a little bit about because I loved your TED talk, and I’m going to put a link to it about women’s role in redefining masculinity, but I want to talk about it specifically through the lens of work. Let’s talk about why men are falling behind in many sectors, and what has been the fallout of them subscribing to this socialization they’ve been given.

Moe Carrick 11:56

Yeah, the fallout is so enormous, is it? And I mean, and certainly right now, if you look at Richard Reeves and some of the work that’s coming out of the Institute for men and boys, men are not doing well right now. We have the highest opioid addictions, the highest victims and perpetrators of gun violence. We’ve got depression and suicide rampant among men, especially young men and men of retirement age. So like we’re just the community of men has fallen in health and well being as feminism has risen, those two things are not connected to me. You know, it’s I don’t think because women are doing better globally, that that means that men are doing worse. I just think we haven’t really, actually paid attention to what we’re investing in around the well being, and in particular to our the point of our conversation here the emotional capacity of men, because let’s face it, empathy is an emotional intelligence skill. It’s also neuro biologically hard wired in us to experience empathy. So young children experience all the same emotions and have the same skills innately that they’re born with as human beings. But what happens is that they become trained out of us, right? And I have an example I’ll share. Like I was in a session last week with a client a small group, and they were all leaders, and a man was describing something painful, which was the level of stress he’s been under in their environment recently, which has really reduced his mental health and his well being, and he was very tender around expressing it. Had some tears in his eyes, but as he was talking, a woman colleague of his began to outright weep, like I could see the tears rolling down her cheek, but then over time, like she was really emotionally impacted, and I asked her if she wanted to say more about what was going on for her, and what she said was, I just really feel with him. I’m really feeling with him. And what was fascinating to me was that it was actually easier for the group to handle the intensity of her feelings than it was his. Yeah, because his expressing this tenderness made everybody uncomfortable. Next thing we knew, everybody’s trying to help her feel better. And I thought, let’s just interrupt this for a minute. Let’s just hold biologically. What’s happening to her is biological. She’s feeling his anguish. She’s connecting it to her own experience of anguish, and she’s letting it show in a vulnerable way that’s we all have that hard wiring. But what’s happened is that we’ve given men a lot of messaging that they couldn’t, that they shouldn’t, and that they can’t actually act on their emotional states of being in a way that builds connection, which leaves them horribly alone and isolated. So this plays out at work over and over and over again around the mixed messaging. We hear it from women all the time. I know you’ve talked about this with women on your show, where women are given negative attribution for the same characteristics that men are lauded for. So Right? Are, you know, assertive are get labeled the B word, right? The same thing. Happens to men? Do you remember many, many years ago when Barack Obama was elected the second time he there was a video that was taken by a staffer in his office of him coming to his team and sharing his gratitude for their help in getting him reelected, and he shed a tear, one like one tear like the man was not weeping. He was just saying, you know, like, think he was

Maria Ross 15:24

having emotions.

Moe Carrick 15:26

He was having a human being. Yeah, right. Very appropriate emotion to the context, which had been a hard fought one. You know, as politics are moved by it. He was moved by it, and to his team in the room and to many who watched it, it created more confidence in him as a leader, more connection of his capacity to do the hardest job in the land. But there were people who took that video as weak, who chastised him as saying, This is not what a leader does when really to do anything but show up the way he did, would have been to miss the moment and be tone deaf, yeah, magnitude of what was happening with his team. So that’s the kind of messaging that has messed us up. I think Maria Yeah, around our natural ways of connecting, yeah,

Maria Ross 16:12

well. And I think that, you know, as a mother of a young son as well, and trying to help him with emotional intelligence and being able to express himself. You know as adults, I think we know enough now that when we do see men acting contrary to their emotions, they almost it’s almost less leaderly Because it reminds us of a toddler who can’t regulate their emotions. And by regulate, I don’t mean stifling it. Yes, you just can’t navigate your own emotions. If you are moved or you are upset and you shed a tear that’s showing a healthy adult emotional reaction, and if you have a leader who says that’s not appropriate in that moment, I would question decision making and the emotional maturity of that leader. And I’m hoping that more of us, as we start to get to exposed and we start to unpack emotional intelligence, will have that reaction, that negative reaction, to a leader who doesn’t own their emotions and regulate their emotions. Now that said, You know what I often do when I’m doing workshops and trainings, is also help people feel comfortable that when we’re talking about empathy at work, it doesn’t mean Everyone’s crying on the floor with each other, because I think that’s the other extreme they go to, right? So tell us some examples of clients you’ve worked with, or teams you’ve worked with, and what delta Did you see? What shift Did you see with some of the male leaders of finally understanding that point, and then what were the results on the team? Yeah, as a result of them finally being willing to reject those old narratives, yeah, and start to actually equip themselves to get in touch with their emotions.

Moe Carrick 17:56

Totally, yeah. I’ve got two examples that I’ll name that are, I think, particularly potent. And let me also offer a little bit of language around the dynamic you’ve been discussing, which is that I really love to differentiate with clients between emotional intelligence and emotionality. Well, emotionality is unmetabolized emotional expression. So you were talking about your son. I also am the mother of three, and I remember when my kids were little, when they felt something intense, they would lay down on the floor and wave their arms and kick and scream and get ready to face that. Why one child in particular, it was very sensitive child, it would be very it was quite intense. Yes. Now 32 Uh huh, and he does not when he has an issue at work, lay down on the floor, kick and scream and cry that is not what he does now, at the same time, he has learned through the school of hard knocks how to express what he needs and what he wants, which allows him to tap into those same feelings. He doesn’t feel anything different than what he felt at age three. He’s just learned how to take care of himself, to metabolize that emotionality and use that emotional intelligence as a source of data to say, Hey, boss, I’m frustrated. I’m worried that we’re not going to succeed with this, etc. So that’s really what emotional intelligence is all about. Is how do we navigate our landscape of emotionality, metabolize those emotions, which happens in our bodies, and then use our cognition to use them as probably one of the most powerful sources of data in the link, I

Maria Ross 19:25

love that, and I love that you talked about it as a source of data, because that’s the other thing I try to tell leaders is think of empathy as a method of information gathering and trying to just understand someone’s context and get information about it. So

Moe Carrick 19:37

I love it, yeah, and convey to them that what they’re feeling is also valid and real. So let me give you these two examples. I worked with a client. This was years ago. This was the energy sector CEO of a company. It was when solar was just starting to really grow, and they had the company had been acquired. They’d gone through some school of hard knocks. They were at about 800 employees. And they had to do a layoff, and the CEO was, of course, the one that would deliver the news to the workforce that was being retained, which is, of course, one of the hardest things a CEO does right is, how do I tell the people that are still here who have survivors guilt, that their friends and colleagues have had to be let go? So he, I was coaching, he and the executive team, and he did a practice run. I suggested he do a practice run to his team group of other C suite leaders, and he prepared his talk, and he gave it to them the day before he was going to talk to all employees. And I was so proud of one of it was his CFO, who, after he gave his talk, which was full of a lot of data, had a lot of compelling market information about why the layoffs were. Very logical, yeah, very logical. And it had a little bit of, like, I would call it hype up, that was a little bit tone deaf around, like, we’re gonna be fine, you know, we’re yeah through this together, yeah? But he gave his practice, and it was really, you know, he was working hard, and he was an articulate, intelligent leader that had actually quite a bit of respect in the workforce. But the CFO at the talk, said, You know,

21:03

I wonder

Moe Carrick 21:03

what you’re actually feeling. And the CEO said, I’m devastated. He said, I’m devastated, I’m sad. I’m in grief. I feel like a failure. Some of my friends now have to look for jobs to support their young families, and this is really hard for me emotionally, is what he said. And he again, he wasn’t in a he wasn’t histrionic, right? Like needing therapy, sharing what was happening for him. So the CFO then said, I think it’d be powerful, Greg, if you could bring a little bit of that

21:38

into your talk.

Moe Carrick 21:42

So they talked about it, and he reworked the talk. I coached him a bit. The next day, he gave the message to the employees, and in it he said those almost exact words, I’m devastated, and I feel like a failure. This is one of the hardest things I’ve done in my career. And he looked his words matched his affect, right, which was sort of sad, not hysterical, but also grounded. And this gets to the paradox that I love, that you’re naming of end, both because he appeared real, but he also appeared leader, like right, which was he said. And here’s the decisions my team and I have had to make and have made. Here’s the going forward plan. Here’s what I think we all can do to process the loss and to support our colleagues who whose jobs couldn’t be maintained. And so they his team, I think, saw him as both a real human, yeah, with feelings, feeling what they were feeling right, also having hope, which is one of the most important currencies in a time like that, and of course, that we’re living through right now. Yeah, of saying, and I can imagine a foreseeable future where we will be in stronger financial footing, and we can hire back the team, you know? And I think so, I think that’s a really good example of somebody who really pivoted, based on some feedback to create a more compelling, strategic message that helped the workforce stay really engaged and connected.

Maria Ross 23:13

Okay, so that story just encapsulated my entire most recent book, because it’s, it hits on kind of all the five pillars of being both an empathetic and an effective leader. And I just want to unpack that for a little bit, because number one, it was, it was self awareness, to understand his own emotions and name them yes, and to be present in the conversation. I call that being confidently vulnerable, right? Yep, he was. He didn’t fall apart as he was being vulnerable. Self Care was obviously around, you know, being able to make sure his capacity was full when he delivered this talk, and could do it from a place that wasn’t full of defensiveness and fear clarity, which was, I’ve prepared. I know what questions they might have. I want to give them as much information as to what is happening next, decisiveness being, you know, transparently communicating why the decisions were made, so that people understood, even if they didn’t agree, they could understand. And maybe not the joy piece as much, but a little bit of the joy piece in terms of the hope. So I love all of that. And I just want to point out, as I always do on the show, just because he was feeling those things and just because it was a hard decision, empathy doesn’t look like changing your mind. So, you know, some people think, well, if I’m being empathetic, I just don’t do the layoffs. No, you still have to make the decision, but the way you do it to your point the way that it’s done with compassion. I was a recipient of an empathetic leader who had to do layoffs of a team right in my past, and that’s why he’s still a mentor of mine to this day. So I love that example, and what I love the most about that example was how it happened in that group, where there. Was safety for another man to communicate. We want to hear how you feel. Yeah, so I want to pick that a little bit. How did they as a team get to the point where they had enough safety and they had enough self awareness among each other that you had another man pointing out, maybe you want to bring more feeling into this to another man, like, what happened before? Like, what was the behind the scenes of how they even

Moe Carrick 25:28

got to that point? Right? So the behind the scenes was that I was called in, as I often am, at the point at which a CEO has assembled their team of experts. They’re usually in a scaling mode, and they find that these thoroughbreds cannot work together. That was why I was initially called in. And so we had done a series of Team advances, which are team retreats, basically, but I prefer the word advance if we’re going to use military, militaristic terminology, to really create the essential ingredient for high team performance, which is vulnerability based trust. Trust that’s based on the knowledge that we have each other’s back, even when we’re imperfect, and that we are interdependent. You know, I think oftentimes executive teams, because they’re all running their own function, whether they’re 10,000 employees or 100 employees, they have their own function, and so they tend to think of their team as their downline, but their team ought to be their colleagues at this, at their leadership level, in my opinion, because that’s the group that they can really be themselves in. That’s where they can garner support, that’s where they can stay and do the hardest things, and where they cross functionally have to come together on behalf of one organizational mission. So we had done a lot of work on self awareness, on emotional intelligence, on Team agreements, which included talking to each other, not about each other, describing emotions as a valuable source of data, deep listening and curiosity. And so those behaviors were present in that team which facilitate the conditions where, by the CFO, who wasn’t, you know, just a super hardwired touchy feely guy, yeah, he knew enough to be like, That talk’s gonna fall flat, yeah, yeah. And he knew that partly because he had delivered similar talks and I did not go well. So he was like, I really want to help my colleague here has a better impact than we know some things now we’ve got some tools and some skills now that are about how we have committed to be as a culture.

Maria Ross 27:29

I love that, because that kind of speaks to this idea I have just within a leader and their own team building, like a code of conduct, a code of like, here’s how we work, beyond the job description and often, to your point, often the executive team gets left out of any sort of team building, team bonding, team dynamics. They just sort of assemble these top performers at this level and expect them all to work together well. And I love your phrase about there are a bunch of thoroughbreds and they

Moe Carrick 27:59

and thoroughbreds. If you ever see I’m a horse person on the racetrack, when they’re near each other, they’re horrible. Yeah, they’re horrible because all they want to do is run. So we’ve got to find a way to help these high performing individual leaders move away from what they’ve been trained, which is rugged individualism, interdependent, shared problem solving, rather than heroic problems. Right now, let me give you a second example, because it might be an interesting one, and it’s not. It doesn’t involve an act of a man, but it involves an act of movement away from historical notions of what leadership looks like. So this was an example in healthcare situation where a nurse leader, a senior nurse leader, was working with her, with she was working a couple levels down because there had been some problems in one acute care area, and it was actually somebody had a nurse that was on duty that day had actually sent a patient home with the wrong prescription. Not a good thing to do, and realized their mistake and came up because there was an absence of the right leadership level for her to go to Shin going right to this CNO and said, I’m panicked. I just sent someone off of this, you know, prescription. And the CNO had been working with me as a coach around emotional intelligence as well, because her challenge was what is true, I think for many of us, in terms of outdated notions of what good leadership looks like, was to be a problem solver who unconsciously cut off her team’s engagement and accountability at the knees, so she was literally dying on the vine. She was so burned out and her team was checked out because they didn’t really do anything serious, because they knew she would take care of it, she would ride in on her white horse and fix everything, which they resented, but it also made their jobs a lot easier, right? So when this nurse came to her in a panic, she had had this coaching, she had some self awareness, and she stopped herself from doing what she later told me she. Desperately wanted to do, which was to pick up the phone and fix the whole thing. She was like, I want to call the pharmacy. I want to call the patient. I want to make sure that this and so she but she didn’t. She knew enough to be like that is not going to help me lead in this situation. So she asked this nurse really important question, where do you want to go? First of all, she said, that sounds really hard. Yeah. She acknowledged the feelings, the feelings that made medication mistake. It happens, and it sounds really hard. I can see that you’re really anxious about this. So empathy first. Then she said, Where would you like to go from here? Or something like, what happens next? And this nurse had it all figured out. She said, Well, my next move was going to be to call the pharmacy, or to call the patient on their cell. Then I was going to call the pharmacy and make sure that that prescription is no longer the system. The CNO was like, great. That sounds awesome. When do you think that needs to happen? She’s like, right away, the nurse leader, then the CNO said she was a little anxious, because she she knew it had to be done, like, within the next few minutes, right? So her problem solving got the best of her, and she said, Do you want me to call? Uh huh? And the nurse lady said, no, no, this is mine to do. What would you mind if I called from here? Nice. And what was so powerful is that this new nurse who had to make this call and apologize and say, I’m so sorry, sent you home with the wrong dosage or prescription, and I’ve remedied it, and here’s what’s happening. She got to do that while being born witness to her boss, who was nodding and listening and saying, Good job. Yeah, that nurse is not going to make that mistake again. Yeah, she was held with care and compassion, and the messaging she got from her boss’s boss’s boss was good job. Yes, mistakes happen. Good job for the CNO, the learning was also palpable, because she got this meta messaging of like, oh, actually, it’s so much easier when I don’t have to be the only one with the answers. Yeah, right, I’m less tired. I didn’t have to make five extra phone calls. My employee Did it, and now I’m very confident that she’s not going to make that mistake happen again. Yeah, win, win, win. And that wasn’t her being more of a woman, that was her resisting her own internalized messaging about what good leadership looks like. Well,

Maria Ross 32:15

that could be done by a man or a woman. This is my point. You know, it’s we don’t need it to be over aggressive. We don’t need it to be shame and blame. Because if we can just take a pause and remember, what is the goal here? The goal here is not just to keep the patient safe and keep the hospital out of a lawsuit. The goal is also to grow our teams as leaders, absolutely. So how do we accomplish? All of that command and control is not going to help accomplishment. Blaming and shaming is not going to help accomplish. It. It’s empathy, it’s collaboration. It’s that self regulation, that self awareness. That’s that first step of being able to show that empathy in a productive way and practice that empathy in a productive way. So what a great example. And I just really quickly wanted to just go back to the point we were making earlier about executive teams often not taking care of themselves as a team the way you would if you were just like the head of marketing, and you had a marketing team or the head of engineering. And I am going to link back in the show notes to an interview I had with Pam Fox rollin about how executive teams can work on their own team building, and why those that shouldn’t be left out of the equation. So I just, I wanted to mention that because I wrote down her name as you were talking.

Moe Carrick 33:33

Sometimes the way I think about that, Maria, I will listen to that episode. I haven’t heard it, but I sometimes say it this way, and you know, the bad stuff flows down. Yeah. So if you’re not working in vulnerability based stress, able to tell you the truth and hold accountability as peers at the senior level, how can you possibly expect that the teams below you will do that? They won’t, because they’re copying and indexing you, right?

Maria Ross 33:57

You’re modeling so I wanted to ask a follow up question on, really, both of these examples, and we’re talking a lot about, you know, we’re talking about, well, I have two follow up questions. One is, how can male leaders, male identifying leaders that are listening? Where can they start on increasing their capacity for emotional intelligence? And then I have a follow up question related to your TEDx talk, which is, what role can women leaders in the workplace play in helping them? Because, you know, rising tide lifts all boats. So yes, it’s definitely for men to work on that skill and work on that capacity for themselves, but there’s also a role we can play as women in the workplace, in leadership roles to foster that adoption. So let’s, let’s dive into the first one. How would you advise, I know, you know, in a pithy tip, it’s really hard, but where’s kind of a first step you would say, would be good for a man who’s like, I know I need help with this. And I don’t know where to start. I think

Moe Carrick 35:01

my first recommendation, I have two that are probably equal. The first one would be to begin talking about your own emotional experiences with other men. I think that’s one of the fastest places to start, because men, supporting men is critical to finding the way that works for men to do that so that can include things like, how do you handle this hard situation? Or, you know, it can be at home, my wife’s really angry at me for watching the game all weekend. Do you ever get that like, how do you I feel frustrated, but also I want to be supportive for her. Like, begin talking with your friends and your colleagues at work about your emotional experiences. Now, many men when I say that, of course, they look at me like I don’t know what I’m feeling. I don’t know what I’m feeling to which I say, all right, start with the body. Begin noticing in positive or negative attribution, emotions, so joy, sadness, loss, exuberance. Notice what’s happening inside your body. Heart’s racing, your palms are sweating, and then begin to try to connect, asking yourself the question, what might I be feeling? We often use the feelings wheel. Some of you, I’m happy to share that in the show notes. I think that Dr Brene Brown’s book, The Alice of the heart is a great place to start, oh, yeah, begin to study and name and understand. What are the emotions? How do I put words to those physical sensations? I think that’s really important to do so talking with other men about that, beginning to normalize, that the second thing I think men can do is to begin leveraging other media that they consume, so movies, television shows, books, podcasts, and notice when their emotions get activated, and again, try to name what might be going on with me. Feel better now that that movie is over that I did when I started. Why? Why made me cry? Why I’m

Maria Ross 36:59

laughing? Because that was one of the tips in my empathy edge book around strengthening your empathy as a leader, was to explore with your imagination, and it was my license for people to binge on Netflix right and practice in a safe place of what am I feeling right now, and also practicing the what might that person be feeling right now,

Moe Carrick 37:20

totally, yeah, one of my favorite characters around indexing there is Harvey in suits. No, his, you know, his partner, the redhead, whose name I can’t remember, is

Maria Ross 37:33

always Donna. Donna, I’m in the middle of binging it right now. Donna

Moe Carrick 37:37

is always taking care of Harvey’s emotions, and as the show progresses, she gets better at standing on the balcony and allowing him in particular, I’m struck with that show. You might not have gotten to this part yet, but where he begins to heal his relationship with his mother. I haven’t gotten to that part yet. No, and, okay, it’s a beautiful scene where Donna says, this is yours to do, basically, yeah, this is yours to do. Well,

Maria Ross 38:01

that’s a great segue to the second question I asked. Part two of that is, what can women leaders do in the workplace to help men foster that capacity and build that capacity? Because again, it makes our lives easier as women leaders if we’re working alongside male leaders who have higher emotional intelligence. So it’s in our best interest to help each other. So what can we do and what should we not do? Yeah, I think one

Moe Carrick 38:28

thing we can do, of course, make sure we are becoming as emotionally intelligent and resilient as we can be, because we’re not. We don’t have a lock on it, as we don’t know and we’re, you know, we have our own stories of behaviors that limit our capacity. I’ll speak for myself. For example, I do not love being vulnerable. It’s not fun. I don’t like to cry. I don’t like to tell people I need help. So that’s an ongoing journey for me around like, how do I actually let people in my life see me the way I really am, and that’s because of how I was enculturated? So whatever your work is as a woman, I think do that. I think in addition, something that we can do as women is to hold space for men’s feelings without judgment, and also to notice our own attachment to how they’re feeling. And I’ll give you an example. So I’m the mother of grown children now. My youngest is 23 is 23 My oldest is 32 my stepson is 37 and I can remember feeling as a young mother, and I still feel this. Sometimes today, I feel anxiety if they are not doing as well as I think they should,

Maria Ross 39:35

right. Welcome to my world, exactly, exactly. My son’s 10 and a half. And yeah, welcome to Marriage. Just at the beginning. Welcome just at the beginning. Oh, my god, yeah. Well, I have several

Moe Carrick 39:46

of my children have had struggled with substance use disorder, with depression and anxiety, and so one of the things that I’ve had to learn, and I think we learn as women, is how to bear witness, whether it’s, you know, die. Agnostic, or it’s just having a bad day or struggling with a big feeling to bear witness to men’s experience, and boys experiences of that without having our anxiety force them to do a certain thing, and way we do that is with things like when boys are little and they get hurt in a game, we say, brush it off because we’re uncomfortable. Don’t cry because we’re like, I have my kids. You know, he was being Ferdinand in the ball, and he got hit in the head. Like we have our own difficulty. We also, I think, in primary relationships, particularly, I think for people who look like you and I, Maria, as white women, we have learned about this is probably a bigger topic that we can open today, but I’ll just say it anyway. We’ve learned about adjacency to power as part of how we get power. So noticing if a man, if we’re working with someone and he’s feeling anxiety, let’s say about something, we may have empathy for him, but we may also feel like, Come on, dude, get get with it. Get it together. Yeah, we need you to be strong right now, when that puts an expectation on his strength to manage my anxiety, what I’d rather have women do is be like, actually, I’m anxious too. Or what can I do to be in empathy for what he’s experiencing, knowing that he will get strong again, rarely anxious. Yeah, I don’t need him to be the strong one. Dr Brene Brown has this wonderful story. She tells I was certified in her work for many years, dare to lead, and she’s told the story one time about a man who waited in line to sign books, one of her books, and his he was at the end of hundreds of people, and he came up to her and he said, Thank you so much. Dr Brown for your books. My wife and daughter came through the line earlier, and I just have one question for you. And she said, yeah, absolutely. What does he said, Well, I wonder if you could do more research with men. And she’s like, Well, I do research with men. What do you mean? And she and he said, Well, my my wife and my daughter, they’re all about wanting me to be vulnerable, wanting me to show what I really feel right up until the point where I fall off my white horse, then they that much, uh huh. So I think there’s something really powerful there around if we’re going to encourage male vulnerability and male emotions in the same ways we experience and give women permission to express feelings, we need to be prepared to not have to jump into fixing and solving what they’re struggling with.

Maria Ross 42:28

My goodness well, and your example with the nurse leader reminded me of that, of not jumping into fix, as women are conditioned to do, even with our male counterpart, our CO leaders, and letting them deal with the repercussions of their emotional intelligence or lack of emotional intelligence, in a healthy way, like, not in a way that’s going to, like, blow up the team, or blow up the quarter or anything like that, but that we don’t have to be the ones to fix it. We don’t have to be the ones to smooth over a conflict that they have with someone else.

Moe Carrick 43:03

Totally, absolutely. We don’t have to run in between run interference, and I think sometimes we do that by just holding our own curiosity, you know. So let’s say, let’s say I’m working with a colleague, and he says, and he’s really behaved badly in a meeting, and I’m degriffing with him afterwards, and I say, Hey John, you know what’s going on? He says, I’m just pissed. Then instead of being like daunted or intimidated or whatever, feelings come up for me when someone’s angry, what would happen if I said, Man, that sounds tough. What else? Right? Because I know that anger is a secondary emotion, so I’m curious, what else is going on for him, right? What’s the root cause? Yeah, absolutely. Let me stand in that fire with him, right, and then be looking at it and maybe even saying words like that. Sounds really interesting. I look forward to hearing how you work that through, right? No where. I’m not going to take it from him, because he’s uncomfortable because, again, as white women especially, I think we’re we are hardwired to support, yeah, I can remember when my boys were little. One my middle son, he had a really hard time expressing his feelings, and I wanted to put the words in his mouth, yep. Are you sad? Are you mad? Are you this? Are you that? So I ended up because I didn’t want to do that. I knew that wasn’t a good idea. I put a bunch of emotions in. We were just laughing about this. Oh, yeah, emotions on slips of paper, and I put them in a jar, and I said, just pull out the slips until you find the one that you think fits right. And he has benefited. Both of my sons have benefited greatly from working with other men in men’s groups. Just put a plug in there

Maria Ross 44:30

as well. That’s great. That’s great. Yeah, finding those groups and finding those trusted those trusted people to talk to, because I feel like women have those groups. We have those social circles of other women that we go to and we talk to, and we gossip with, and we share with, and all those things. And I there’s not a lot of men that I see have that same level. They might go out for beers with other guys, but what are they really talking about? Right? Well,

Moe Carrick 44:56

right? I don’t feel like we’ve been as permission giving, and I think it’ll be. Is one of the wonderful things about feminism that I know has benefited me, which is gathering other women. I’m in a women’s incubator. I I have been in book groups. I’ve been in quilting groups. I ride my horses with my gal friends like those are all communities of women who support me in my own growth. And I think we could do a lot more to facilitate men having those kinds of connective conversations

Maria Ross 45:22

well, and I might just add one thing that might make us take a hard left on this, but hopefully not really. You know, recently, this past year, I don’t even know how many months of ago it was, you know, there was this meme going around about, you know, as a woman, if you were alone in the forest, would you rather run into another, a man or bear? Remember that whole trope that was going around, and most women said the bear, right? And I got it, obviously, as a woman, I understand that, and the way it got really it got so much play, it got so much air time. And I remember my young son seeing those messages, and I didn’t like that he was seeing those messages, because then he got some sort of an assumption that he was inherently bad. And again, I tried to thread the needle of yes, there are men that do prey on women, that take advantage of women, but when we start to lump them all together and say, just because you are a man. A, you are expected to act a certain way, as we’ve been talking about, but B, you are also a danger to me simply because of virtue of being a man. That message to our young boys, I think, if it’s not tempered and it’s not explained, is really dangerous. And I felt like I was in the minority trying to express that as a woman, that I was sort of, you know, I was going against my sisters by saying that. But for those of us who are raising men and boys, we also have to remember that if we’re giving them a narrative that this is who they are, then that’s who they’re going to be. And it holds true whether you know you cannot cry, you cannot have emotions, if we keep telling them that message, that’s who they’re going to be, if we keep telling them that you are dangerous, you are a threat, you are an aggressor, that’s who they’re going to be. That’s right. So I you know this is not to say that women don’t have their right to their feelings around how they feel about men or or the threats they feel from men. But we also have to remember that we are creating those narratives that young boys and men are hearing our future leaders absolutely

Moe Carrick 47:34

and I would say, I would add, Maria, thank you for that wisdom. I would add that it’s not even necessarily only that they will become more like the bear, for example, they will what we’re seeing play out actually is what they will become. Is not that they will become victims of predators on the internet. They will become lonely, isolated, depressed and kill themselves. They will become addicts. They will become people who can’t get jobs and can’t love their partners, they will become beaters, so So and they will become, usually, what we’re seeing, of course, with the rise of the loneliness epidemic, they’ll become really unhappy, sad people. And you know, as I say in my TED Talk, like wherever we go, we go together, whether we are heterosexual or gay, whether we’re trans or cis, we are in community with people who identify as men. We I think our society at large, especially perhaps right now, we have such big examples of a few very bad and very rich men that are not reflective of the experience of the majority of men who are good humans trying to be in community with us, at work and at home. And so I think we have to be really cautious not to over index and like you. I don’t, you know, I don’t disagree that women are vulnerable in some cases, but we also mean to remember that the majority of the people we work with and that we live with are just like us, to connect, seeking to feel seen and to do the right thing in partnership.

Maria Ross 49:14

I love that, and I just, you know, as we wrap up, I’m just going to add that, you know, and that’s where all my men listening, you know, embrace your empathy and your compassion as a strength, not a weakness, and know that it doesn’t have to go completely to the other side of the pendulum, where you are, you know, an emotional mess. To your point about the difference between emotional intelligence and emotionality that you can show your emotions, it will actually benefit you as a leader. It will benefit your team. It will benefit your engagement, your productivity, your output, if you are able to be your whole human self at work. And I just want to encourage men listening to recognize that, and hopefully, if you’re listening to this podcast, you are that kind of man and. That kind of a leader. So yes,

Moe Carrick 50:01

and I would add, and when you do so, you help the world change the messaging away from that those incredibly powerful behaviors are weak, but that, in fact, they are a single and unifying source of strength.

Maria Ross 50:18

Put a pin in it. I love it. Moe, thank you so much for your insights today. What a great conversation. Thank you for having me talking I know exactly so we will have all your links in the show notes. I’ll also put all the links to different things we referenced through our talk today in the show notes. But for folks that are on the go, maybe listening on their treadmill or on their peloton. Where’s the best place they can find out more about you and your work? Thank

Moe Carrick 50:44

you so much for asking. I think the best place would be to find me on LinkedIn. I’d love to connect with you on LinkedIn. If you’re listening and I’m always sharing our resources, our newsletter, our tips and tools for people via that medium. You can certainly go the website too, but LinkedIn is probably the best way to be in community. I

Maria Ross 51:00

love it. And as I always say, if you connect with Moe on LinkedIn, make sure you write a personalized note that says that you heard her on this show. Otherwise she’s going to think you’re trying to sell her something. So

Moe Carrick 51:13

thanks again. Moe, thank you, Maria, so great to talk with you. And

Maria Ross 51:17

thank you everyone for listening to another episode of the empathy edge podcast. If you like what you heard, you know what to do. Please rate, review and share with a friend or a colleague, and until next time, please remember that cash flow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be kind. For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy. Visit the empathy edge.com there you can listen to past episodes, access show notes and free resources. Book me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes, insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slice Maria, never forget, empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place.

Cash flow, creativity, and compassion are not mutually exclusive™

Courage to Advance: From HR Leader to Job Seeker: Mastering Authentic Career Transition with Karen Hague

Welcome to Courage to Advance, hosted by Kim Bohr and brought to you by SparkEffect, in partnership with The Empathy Edge.

Tune in to our subseries every 3rd Thursday, right here on The Empathy Edge! Or check us out at www.CourageToAdvancePodcast.com.

What happens when the HR executive who once handled outplacement for others suddenly finds herself on the receiving end? In a candid role-reversal conversation, Kim Bohr sits down with Karen Hague, a former Head of HR who experienced executive outplacement firsthand and transformed that challenge into an opportunity by becoming a career coach for executives facing similar transitions. Together, they explore how leaders can navigate career disruption with grace, purpose, and strategic vision.

This candid conversation reveals how outplacement—often viewed as an ending—can become a powerful catalyst for professional growth and personal transformation. Karen shares vulnerable insights from both sides of the table: implementing outplacement as an HR leader and experiencing it personally.

Discover practical strategies for building authentic professional relationships, leveraging your network effectively, and aligning your next career move with your core values. Learn why creating a structured approach to career transitions can transform uncertainty into opportunity

To access the episode transcript, please scroll down below.

Key Takeaways:

How to overcome the shame and vulnerability that often accompanies executive transitions
The critical importance of authenticity when crafting your transition story
Why values alignment should drive your next career decision
Practical networking strategies that build genuine two-way relationships
How organizations can approach outplacement with empathy and strategic wisdom

“When you show up as your authentic, transparent, vulnerable self, you’re at your best. And it took me a while to realize what was my best, but I can’t fake it. When I don’t show up that way, it’s not a good situation for anybody.” — Karen Hague

About Karen Hague: Karen is an experienced HR leader and executive coach based in the San Francisco Bay Area. With over 30 years in human resources, her career spans roles across all HR disciplines, culminating as Head of HR for a company that transitioned from private equity ownership to public status during her tenure.

Karen’s unique perspective comes from experiencing both sides of executive transitions—implementing outplacement strategies as an HR leader and navigating her own career pivot. Today, she channels this experience into coaching executives through career transitions, helping them discover authentic paths forward aligned with their values and strengths.

About SparkEffect:

Go to sparkeffect.com/edge now and download your complimentary Professional and Organizational Alignment Review today.

Connect with Karen Hague:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/karenhague/

Connect with Kim Bohr and SparkEffect

SparkEffect: sparkeffect.com

Courage to Advance recording and resources:

sparkeffect.com/courage-to-advance-podcast

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/company/sparkeffect

LinkedIn for Kim Bohr: linkedin.com/in/kimbohr

Connect with Maria:

Get Maria’s books on empathy: Red-Slice.com/books

Learn more about Maria’s work: Red-Slice.com

Hire Maria to speak: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross

Take the LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy

LinkedIn: Maria Ross

Instagram: @redslicemaria

Facebook: Red Slice

Threads: @redslicemaria

FULL TRANSCRIPT:

Kim Bohr 01:20

what if the most defining moment of your leadership journey isn’t when you’re in the position of power making decisions, but rather when you’re handed the decision you never wanted your own outplacement. Welcome everyone. I’m Kim Bohr, president and COO of Spark effect and host of the courage to advance podcast. Today’s guests live this story from both sides of the table and discover that career upheaval isn’t the end of leadership, but often is the most profound beginning. Karen egg has over 30 years of experience in business, human resource management and executive leadership across a variety of industries. Her career journey has brought her to maybe her most impactful role now as a career coach who specializes in working with leaders in transition, whether leaving a company or promoting from within, for those leaders that are impacted by layoffs, her own journey provides a level of empathy and understanding that helps leaders regain confidence and the ability to see what’s possible. Welcome Karen, to the courage to advance podcast. I am so happy you’re here with us today.

Karen Hague 02:25

Thanks, Kim. I’m thrilled to be here. So let’s start by

Kim Bohr 02:29

giving our listeners a little bit of just kind of high level about your journey. And then we I’ve got so many great questions for you that I hope will really benefit those listening today. So please start by telling everybody how you’ve gotten to this place.

Karen Hague 02:42

Okay, so I started my career actually in line business positions, management positions in a Midwest retail organization, department store, and worked my way into the buying office. So spend some time in the buying office as well, and then convince someone to give me a shot in human resources. And since then, for the last oh gosh, 30 years, I’ve had a career in all of the different areas of human resources. And my last role was head of HR for a company that was private equity health, and then went public while I was there. So had some really great experiences throughout my life. And now on this next act I have the opportunity to coach, as well as do a little bit of HR consulting. Very exciting. I love that. So let’s dive right in. So you know, you and I have been talking about this a bit. You many executives really build their identity around the professional role, yeah, and part of why you’re here today is to really talk about some of the challenges that come up in that journey. And I’d love for you to talk a little bit about what was your most vulnerable moment during your career transition, and what specific act of courage did it take to move through the fear rather than being paralyzed by it? Great question, and yes, so identified by the work that we do and the work that we love to do. I think my most vulnerable moment was, well, I’ve sat in the job seeker seat twice, and I’ve sat in the client seat several times as well. I think from the job seekers side, it was realizing that I really didn’t want to be in the corporate HR world any longer. I wanted to do the things that I love to do. I also was really honest with myself and realized I’m not great at everything in human resources, and that was okay, and it was very empowering and made me able to take a risk and feel bold in being vulnerable and realizing I wanted to really focus in the areas that I felt I was really good at, and that gave me a lot of confidence to be able to take that leap.

Kim Bohr 04:51

And just to clarify a little bit further, that was really because of downsizing that needed to take place in your organization. Really being forced to have to make a transition yourself in a way that perhaps wasn’t as expected, correct? Definitely,

Karen Hague 05:07

I think there were also, in looking back, things that, again, I was really good at, but not everything. And it gave me the opportunity to look at that and say that’s okay, because this is really where I want to focus my time and energy anyway. And I don’t know that I would have done that as much having not had the experience of going through a reduction in force, a downsizing, an outplacement opportunity that really made me helped me to realize that,

Kim Bohr 05:40

and it’s so important that we’re talking about this now, there’s a lot of uncertainty in our economy as we record this. There’s a lot of just every day, we’re seeing layoffs through the government. We’re seeing layoffs through, you know, private industry. So you know, when you think about you back at that you could have at the time when you were, you know, maybe even first impacted, how did your identity as a leader shift during your transition from head h head of HR into experiencing outplacement yourself?

Karen Hague 06:07

I think in several ways. I think the first one was realizing that it was okay to be vulnerable, that there wasn’t shame attached to being part of a reduction in force, and that you could grab that as an opportunity. I know, I know opportunity doesn’t always come to mind when you think about being part of a reduction in force, but if you shift your mindset looking at it as an opportunity, and you take that opportunity to really revisit your values and think about who it is that you want to be and what it is that you want to be doing in that moment. Think I also realized that empathy, authenticity, transparency, are absolutely fine in a leadership role. And for me, when I show up as my authentic, transparent, vulnerable self, I’m at my best, and it took me a while to realize what was my best, but I can’t fake it, and if I don’t show up that way, it’s not a good situation for anybody. So I think those were my biggest learnings as a leader, experiencing that you mentioned

Kim Bohr 07:16

the word shame. And I think that’s something that I’d like to just talk a little bit more about, I think that’s something that it is such a natural emotion that people can feel. And sometimes we feel that when things are completely out of our control, we don’t have we really weren’t, we didn’t do anything. From a performance standpoint, this is truly, you know, economic pressure. And so, you know, can you talk a little bit more about that feeling, not only that you experienced, but how you where that shows up with others as well, and some of the work you do now?

Karen Hague 07:48

So probably the biggest place that shows up is when I talk to leaders about what we call their transition statement, how you went from one position to another. And you answer that question, why did you leave your last job, especially if it wasn’t necessarily your choice to leave that last job. And I bring in that authenticity, that vulnerability, that transparency, that suggests to people it’s your choice, but suggests to people to be your authentic, honest self. And I tell you what. The first time I told that story, it kind of got caught in my throat, and I was like, Oh my gosh, am I going to be this transparent and authentic? And I tell you what, it gave me the biggest boost of confidence, and again, helped me be more bold and take some risks. I’ll never know for sure, but I don’t think I ever had a challenge in finding my next role by telling my own authentic, very real, transparent story. It’s up to everyone, but I really encourage my clients to do that. So

Kim Bohr 08:47

when you know when you were

Karen Hague 08:51

going through the experience yourself, was that what was the most challenging part? Was it trying to get to this place of being honest with yourself. Was it navigating that you know, any sense of guilt or shame yourself, or talk a little bit more about you know that as well? I think it was all of those things Kim. It was definitely setting aside the shame and getting comfortable with telling my story in a way that was authentic to me. But it was also realizing that it was okay to ask for help. I had been that person all my life that was helping others, you know, in my personal life and my professional life, certainly as a head of HR and all through my HR career, and to realize that I needed to ask some people for help was the first step. And then the second step was realizing what I was asking for, what I was I asking people to help me with. And when I came to that realization, and I came up with the things that I was asking for help with, I realized how vast my network was and how much. Much people want to help you. You just need to sometimes help them know how to help you in those situations, because people want to help they just don’t always know how that. I

Kim Bohr 10:09

think that’s such a great point. And I think in such our busy time, how quickly things are moving, and then with uncertainty, it can be de prioritized for a lot of us. I think so. If you could go back and you really tell yourself on the day you receive the news, you know, just your best words of wisdom, what would that be? I think

Karen Hague 10:31

it would be, everything’s going to be okay. And just take a pause, take a breath and have a plan. I’m a huge planner. Anybody who knows me is going to laugh their head off at that. I’m a really big when they hear that I’m I need a plan. And when you are a person that likes a plan, being a job search isn’t the time to turn that off and think you’re going to throw caution to the wind, then be willy nilly. It’s the time to really invigorate that side of you. Work with a coach if you have a company that has given you the opportunity. But also think of your plan, but be willing to tweak it as you go and as you learn new things, what works, what doesn’t work, so everything’s going to be okay, confidence. And really also take a look at who do you want to be in this next chapter of your life. You have an opportunity to change some things up, show up a little bit differently, really hone in on the things that you’re really good at, and that’s all values work that you could do on your own or you can do with another partner or coach, and really determine what are your values that you really want to make sure you find in your next company or in your next app. So

Kim Bohr 11:45

one of the things that I think would be great for us to expand on a little bit more for listeners, is when we talk about the type of coaching, not only that you do, but you receive that was so pivotal in this transition for yourself, talk a little bit about the difference between the career coaching aspect and other types of coaching that people may be familiar with, such as executive coaching, of which you really at Spark effect we have both that we bring forward and yet there’s a really important difference. They’re not typically the same types of coaches. So can you talk a little bit about that? I think

Karen Hague 12:19

first and foremost, they both start out knowing that the client, the participant, the person that you’re sitting across from, controls the agenda, and really meeting that person where they’re at that’s not different in either executive or leadership coaching or career transition coaching. It’s all about getting to know your client, getting to know the person that’s sitting across from you, and where are they in this moment, and what do they need? And I’ve had some clients that we’ve spent five sessions in the kind of grief and processing what happened and moving through that what we talked about earlier on, which was shame. But then I think where the difference is is career transition coaching is a little bit more, it brings in a little bit more advisory work for those of us who’ve been here, and the great tools that we have available to us through spark effect, to give some structure to that search, give a roadmap to that search, we can still jump around within that roadmap based on what the client needs are. But is networking your biggest challenge? Let’s jump into that. Is interviewing your biggest challenge. Let’s jump into that and really develop your questions as well as what the questions are that you think this company recruiter or hiring manager is going to ask you. That doesn’t necessarily, of course, happen in leadership or executive coaching. So I think that’s probably where the biggest difference is. Is there a real, tried and true tools that we have available to offer to a client, to use based on where they sit and what their biggest needs are, meeting them where they’re at,

Kim Bohr 13:56

that’s really important and helpful. That’s really, really helpful. So given our, you know, our the the name of our podcast is courage to advance. You know, what is courage to advance mean to you now that you’ve been you through this transition, you know, out the other side now doing this work to help others navigate it. What is what does that

Karen Hague 14:17

mean? Courage to advance was first off taking the opportunity to to move into a coaching and consulting role and getting my certification and doing all the things that I needed to do to set up my business, and then really believing that people would come to me for This expertise and utilize my services. So it was really being bold and making a career choice in that moment, maybe a little earlier than I planned, but the timing was right to take that opportunity. So taking a risk, being a little bit bold and trying something new. Because of that values, work that I had done, that I mentioned in the last question of knowing this is the right time, this is where I want to be, and this is what I want to do. And again, back to our one of our first questions, knowing myself, showing up as my authentic, transparent self, is always important to me, I just didn’t know it early on. I think that’s so important for everybody, and sometimes that’s really scary for people too, to be to feel so vulnerable and transparent when these really just life changing moments are occurring. But yeah, let me add just one other thing that that really was eye opening for me. I’ve always had a good network. You’re talking to somebody who has best friends from kindergarten. So networking has always been an important part of my life, but I didn’t always realize it as a network, and I didn’t realize how powerful my network was until I went to it for some help with my job searches, and then when I went to it, when I started my own, my own business, and the amount of support when I asked for it was, it was, it just blew me away. And everybody has that, and it’s never too late to start cultivating that network, because it will absolutely get you through whatever this channel. Next challenge is, when you turn to your network,

Kim Bohr 16:30

is such an important point, and the fact that people inherently want to be helpful, and sometimes they just help because you don’t maybe know how to ask exactly for what you need, or it’s just you’re afraid to ask, and I want to spend some time on that in our conversation, before we get there. Were there any blind spots that you know you discovered about executive transition that weren’t maybe as visible, that you know for sometimes, I think people, the reason I think that’s an interesting view to have from you is that sometimes I think people don’t know what the real benefits are of engaging in this type of support when it’s available. And I’d be curious if there was maybe some preconceived notions that you had, or blind spots in that way,

Karen Hague 17:16

I think, as a participant, I thought I knew exactly what I needed to do, and I didn’t. I knew how to do it from a hiring manager or certainly an HR perspective, but I didn’t know how to do that from a job seeker perspective. So that was probably the first thing. And then I think I go back to that asking for support when you need it, and getting into that vulnerable place where you say, I need support from my network or from my coach or from a micro session or a podcast or whatever it is. And that, again, the confidence that that gave me and the ability to be a little bit more bold and take a risk was something that was learning definitely for me. And then I Yeah, go ahead. No, no, please. I was just going to say from the other side of the desk, from the HR leader side of the desk. It was really realizing that an organization that that you partner with for career transition, career transition services for people who are leaving your organization through a reduction in force, any kind of a layoff, is that organization and coaches can help in ways that you as an HR leader, can no longer help in. It’s just a different approach when someone is there to support that person that you have just laid off, and the ability to have that support for them. You know, coaches aren’t therapists, but it’s very much a mental health support in that scenario, that as an HR leader or as a hiring a manager or any kind of an executive, you just can’t offer that person any longer, in addition to all of the tools that I talked about. So the practical support, but boy, that empathetic, really heartfelt support that you can get from an organization that’s in this space is really, really beneficial. So

Kim Bohr 19:20

it’s, it’s a bit of that what we all crave is to be seen and heard, and in the most, deepest, darkest moments of our our lives, having that type of resource can be really critical. Yeah, for sure, absolutely. I want to switch and talk a little bit about some of the organizational impacts that we see. I think you know, you obviously know firsthand we experience people who have a range of emotion when they come, and sometimes that emotion is coming from how it was handled, how the separation was handled in the. The organization itself, right, and how that really just kind of carries through with them as well. So I’m curious that you know, when you think about some of that different levels of emotion, and based on your experience of having been on both sides, you know what? What are the outplacement practices that truly make a difference for executives and organizational health to really get it right.

Karen Hague 20:22

I’d say a couple of different things. One from the career transition side, is that ability to again, meet the person where they’re at and tailor the engagement with that person to the needs of that individual. And you know, if I’ve got eight different clients that I’m working with, it’s eight different approaches for what that person needs in that moment. I think it’s also that roadmap that I mentioned of having the ability got a roadmap that starts here and ends here. And the thought is, you work through that entire, entire roadmap to get to the success on the other side of it. But if we need to move around within that mode roadmap, we can absolutely do that. It is. It’s the ability to, again, I keep saying this, but meet that individual where they’re at and fulfill those needs. Not a linear process that a linear, absolutely great point. It’s that model of change, and you could be chugging along through it, and something happens to put you back at the beginning of that process, and we’re going to go back to the beginning of that process again. I think, from a company perspective, it’s the ability to have someone leave your organization knowing that you did everything that you could, to take to take care of them, to help them, give them a landing, give them some support in moving on. They might not feel that right in that moment, but people talk, and they are going to talk about the support that you gave them, and it’s important for the people who are left behind to know that you did everything that you could in that moment. It doesn’t make it any less tough, but it does make it a little bit more manageable to know that this person is going to be able to move on to something. I think Kim, I can almost always say people move on to something bigger and better with that support.

Kim Bohr 22:13

That’s fantastic. So having been ahead of HR, sitting in the position where these difficult decisions you’ve had to face and make what do you feel many organizations just get fundamentally wrong about the approach to outplacement, and perhaps, what could they do to improve it?

Karen Hague 22:32

From your experience, I’d say a couple of things. I think, first off, the value that companies miss or forget or don’t realize in out placement, and that the money that they pay for that is so valuable, one to the individual that’s been affected you’ve just turned their life upside down. Oftentimes, people are blindsided by that, so that support that you give them that they can meet with a coach the next day or the next week or the next month, whenever it works out for them. Is so important to I mentioned their their health, their well being, and their ability to have a support system and to have a road map to know it’s going to be okay and they’re going to land. And I think from the company standpoint, it’s knowing that someone is going to be empathetic and understanding and experienced in this work to be able to help them get to the other side in a successful way that shows them that there is an opportunity there.

Kim Bohr 23:35

So to expand on that just a little bit further right, organizations have the fiduciary responsibilities when you know the perception of hey, when we’re making, you know, cuts for you know, economic reasons, or whatever the investment reasons, sometimes it may not intuitively make sense to maybe a CFO or or others around well, why are we going to pay for individuals? Because I think that’s an important piece. When services are offered to individuals, from an organization’s perspective, the individuals aren’t paying, but the organization is the one sponsoring it. So you know, what do you feel like? How can organizations reconcile that of this investment that you know, and and the organization and the brand and everything like that.

Karen Hague 24:21

I think it’s investment and brand, those two things that you said, and I’d also add the empathy that you want to have towards your employees. These are your alumni. These are people, as I mentioned, they’re going to be talking about their experience with your organization, so your brand is absolutely wrapped up in that and the ability to have that person talk in a positive light about their experience with the organization, I think, is really important. I think we also, as career transition coaches, are very cognizant of the fact that their company paid for this, and we do reiterate that in our conversations that it’s it’s not their expense. It’s a. Companies, and that helps them take advantage of it, probably even more. So it’s a tough decision to make that choice in light of the fiduciary responsibility, but I think having experienced it on both sides of the fence, I can talk to the fact that it really is worth that investment in those individuals who are moving on. We’ve all heard the horror stories. We don’t need to bring them up here, but we’ve all heard of those stories how companies handle transitions, and it doesn’t have to be that way. There can be empathy and transparency and honesty in the process, and that definitely transfers into the career transition work, absolutely. Do you feel like

Kim Bohr 25:44

the organizations when that when it’s when it’s not such a when it’s a terrible experience? Would you say that that’s often rooted in the culture of the organization? Do you feel like there’s correlation there that translates to just that disconnect.

Karen Hague 26:01

I think it’s a lot of different things, complex and simple. I think probably first and foremost, it does go back to the culture of the leadership in that organization, to be empathetic, to be transparent, to be honest, and not to be afraid of what’s going to come from that, but to be caring for that individual that you were affecting their life, absolutely, I think, you know, one of the things we we haven’t talked about yet, I want to just touch on briefly before we we move into some of the areas that individuals can really look to, to prepare themselves and do immediately is really thinking about those who are not impacted, who are left behind, in a sense, and some of that consideration for organizations. Is there anything you can share about the cons, what you took into account when you were in the head of HR role recognizing that you also have this population that is, you know, continues to stay there, and what does that do for them? I think sometimes we forget that organizations forget that there are survivors or people who are left behind by those who’ve exited, sometimes their manager, sometimes a colleague who has become their best friend, and it’s really hard sometimes for them. So the care and feeding of your organization, of people who remain that you want to be great, productive, happy citizens in your company, is really important too, your team members and that, that empathy, that transparency, that honesty, transfers to them too. Town Halls, where people have the opportunity to talk about it, and leaders who are willing to answer tough questions. When these scenarios or situations happen immediately, not days or weeks, but immediately after, whatever the event is, not having it trickle through, you know, multiple days. I mean, there’s just some really simple but complex things that you need to think about and plan for, for the people who are who are still with your organization, as much as you plan for the conversation where someone is going to exit, or as much as you plan for who is going to exit, every single piece of that equation is so important and deserves equal attention. And I would also say, working with a group of transition coaches, a career transition company, ahead of that, we can provide some of that guidance, because we’ve seen it happen really well, and we’ve seen it happen really poorly, and the difference is very impactful to the individual as well as to the organization well. And it matters to the brand impact. It matters to the engagement. It matters to the involuntary turnover that could come after, or to the voluntary turnover that could come afterwards, with people not feeling like that things were handled well. I think it’s it has a very significant ripple effect that organizations need to be accounting for. And it’s beyond just the simple dollars and cents of the immediate, you know, the immediate situation in front of them. So if somebody’s trying to sit and think about what their values are, what might be a question, you’d say, Hey, start by answering maybe not just as simply as, what are my values, but what are some of the questions you might suggest people just reflect on as a good place to start. It’s a great question, values work can be done by saying, by list, saying, Here’s my values. I think sometimes then you end up with aspirational values, which is fine. Values can be aspirational. I like to do values work by telling stories, and I start with, tell me about it. Time when you worked in a position or on a team, when you were at your very best, and and just tell me the story. And then I jot down the words that I hear that lead to values. And then I might go to another one of saying. Tell me the time where it was really challenging for you. Could be your personal life or your professional life, life. Tell me that story, and I again do the work to write down those words. And then after 234, stories, whatever that is, I go back to the person with the list of words. And at that point, it’s probably 20 or 30 words that are values. And then I let them sit with those for a while and really think about the words and what hits them the most, what lands with them the most, and what’s the most impactful to them. And then we mean again, and we narrow that list down. I think that’s the best way to get it values, because it’s what I hear and what I read back to them through their stories. That’s Oh my

Kim Bohr 31:01

goodness, that’s such a fantastic approach. I haven’t thought of that in that way of, of letting yourself just talk and letting somebody else do some of that filtering through because of the intonation and in the way we think about how we’ve taught the story and the and, you know, even the the body, and like how our how our body shifts and our, you know, our features change as we start to talk about something that has excited us, and where

Karen Hague 31:31

do you light up? Where? Yeah, where do you not light up? And those are the things absolutely that I’m looking for, and the number of times that I’ve sent the values list, or I’ve typed it into a to a chat and had a person really think about it, the number of times they’ve said, Oh my gosh, I didn’t. I never thought about that. Of course, that’s one of my values. Is really, is really fun and really exciting work to do and really impactful for the individual. I think they always walk away with a better idea and understanding of what their values are, and then we work to okay. But what does this mean for you when you are looking for your next role? How do you ask questions of a company that help you, you know, dig into that organization and the culture of that organization to determine if this is going to be the best place for you based on those values. So I want such great work. It’s such great

Kim Bohr 32:27

work. It really is. And so what I want to do is, let’s close out by bringing forward some of these, you know, practical nuggets that people can embrace right now. So for those who perhaps are not impacted, I would guess that maybe there’s, but somebody’s probably knows somebody who has been at this stage. So for themselves, like, let’s talk a little bit about what people could do proactively in the way. And you know, one of the things you’ve talked about is the importance of network, and I think that’s where maybe we should start. So what would you advise people to do, no matter how busy they feel life is to really what can they do to address that opportunity with their network?

Karen Hague 33:05

When you asked the question, I was thinking of three things, networking, networking, networking, to be proactive, no matter what you want to do, no matter if you’re thinking about a career change that you’re going to initiate, or you’re thinking about a career change that may come through no no fault of your own, and you’re just caught up in whatever the challenges of the organization are. It’s never too late to start. I’ve talked to so many leaders who come to their first meeting with I have no network. I have no network. Not true. Everyone has a network. Some are bigger than others, certainly, but a network can be six people. You really have to take the time to think about who that is, list it out, take an Excel or Word document and list out who your network is, why you know them. Who are they, what’s their contact info, and how can they help you? But the other thing is, how can you help them? Networking is a two way street. We all know those people that show up in our email box or in a text saying, I need your help. Happy to help them, but they’re those people that come to you only when they need help. What can you also give to your network and before you need it is the right time to do that. I saw an article and I thought of you, I know the last time we talked, this was a challenge you were dealing with. Here’s something that really helped me send a link, something really simple and easy that takes you, I don’t know, what does that take three minutes to go pull a link and send it to someone. The feeling that you have is an individual who gets that from a former colleague, a boss, a former boss, a friend for years, is so good. So be that person that brings that joy to someone. When you look at your phone and say, Oh, Karen had got in touch with me today. I’m really excited to hear from her. So it’s never too late to do that. Kim, I agree,

Kim Bohr 34:53

and I think let’s stay on that topic a little bit more. So we talk about everybody knows LinkedIn, and I want to dive into that in just a moment. But also your community. So whether, you know, if you have kids in school and there’s events around that, there’s community there. In faith based organizations, there’s community. And so I think sometimes people think, Well, my network feels small because we put a barrier between our professional and our personal lives. And I think one of the big opportunities for people is to shift around this, it all flows together in different ways, and your communities, inclusive of all those type of outlets that you touch,

Karen Hague 35:27

yeah, absolutely. Just like most of us are saying, there’s no more work and personal, everything is blended together. I’d say the same thing about your network. Your network can be personal connections that you’ve known forever, or you’ve known for a day. It can be business associates that maybe you’ve never worked with but you’ve interacted with on somewhat of a on a professional level, it can be colleagues. It can be former team members that have reported to you. It can be bosses that you’ve reported to. It is all of those things. That’s why I say start with a blank sheet and write down everyone you know when you’re brainstorming your network, just like brainstorming a business problem, there’s no judgment. Just put down everybody you know. Don’t judge it, and then go back later and prioritize it, because not all networking connections are equal, but all of them are good and all of them are relevant. And it may take you a while to get to the sixth one or the 36th one, but start with those ones that are, you know, more of a priority based on whatever it is that you need in the moment. Do you have a business problem that you’re trying to solve? Go out to your network, right? You have a business problem that you have solved, that you know somebody else is struggling with? Give it to your network. Yeah. And then if you find yourself in the situation, when you find yourself ready to make your next move, your network is there for you. It’s there

Kim Bohr 36:49

for you. And I think it’s, I love how you said that, that it’s there’s so many ways that we can be tapping into that in a so we just have to think a little bit more broadly. And it goes both ways. And I think one of the things that we often, just maybe sometimes human nature, is we don’t assume either somebody is going to have interest in what we do, or that they have, that they have any relevancy into what we do. And I think that’s such a erroneous determination, because really, you never know who knows who. And that’s, you know, being open to what’s possible and what you can give is really important. So I want to talk a little bit about the LinkedIn and a little bit more tactically there, because I think one of the it’s the predominant tool, right? So most people are on LinkedIn. I recognize that maybe not everybody is based on, sometimes even their own, the type of profession they’re in, but by far, most are. And one of the things that I love what you were saying around it doesn’t even have to be through LinkedIn, but an article that you see, or a podcast that you heard, or something that maybe just feels relevant to touch base with. I also in back in the November, December time frame, we we did a gratitude campaign. We’ve been doing this for about the last five years, and one of the things that we really encourage people to do this year was to proactively send a little note to people on things and give them their, you know, a recommendation or a shout out in ways that there’s perhaps really unexpected. As we wrap up, is there a particular way you advise the leaders, you work with the executives. You’ve you support around how to make that two way ask in the most effective way to your point, not necessarily asking for a job, but even asking for a coffee or conversation or anything like that. Is there some tips about that that you would really recommend

Karen Hague 38:40

for people? Yeah, great question. I think the first one I would say, is just start somewhere. Once you get one under your belt, the next one’s going to be easier, and the third one and the 10th one are going to be even easier. So start somewhere. Start with the people that you know, because that’s easiest. But I will also tell you, surprisingly, sometimes it’s the people you don’t know that are the most willing to help you. Sometimes those close connections will disappoint you. You can’t try to figure it out. You just kind of need to move on from it. But don’t be afraid to ask someone that you don’t know as well to get a resume in front of someone or hey, you work for a company that’s a target of mine. Do you have 20 minutes to meet and talk to me about what it’s like to work at that organization? Most people will have 15 to 20 minutes to give you. So it starts somewhere. It’s never too late, and provide a way that someone can help you. People want to help they just don’t always know how. So if you’re asking, example, if you’re asking for an introduction to a hiring manager or a person at a company that you would like to talk to, give them a paragraph about you that they can just copy and paste into their own email and send us someone make it easy and make an ask, and know what your ask is from this individual. That’s why. When you’re coming up with your networking sheet, you’re listing for yourself how this person can help you, because then you can go to that person with an ask that’s very specific.

Kim Bohr 40:09

And I think the other to cap that off, it’s so important for people then to also say, and how can I help you? What can I do to help you? Is there anything I can do at this stage

Karen Hague 40:21

as well. Yeah, yes, it’s critical to be able to say, How can I help? Well,

Kim Bohr 40:27

Karen, this has been a fantastic conversation. Thank you so much for sharing your experience, your expertise, your tips that you are putting implementing on a daily basis for all of these people that are impacted, and hopefully our listeners can take away some of this from a place of of direction and confidence, and organizations can think about this a little bit better. And for our listeners, we have free resources. They’re very relevant to the conversation today that you can download by visiting courage to advance podcast.com and which will that will that will take you to our spark defect, Spark effect podcast page. You’ll be able to see some other previous recordings as well. Again, I want to thank Karen for sharing your journey and your insights. Thank you for the empathy edge, for hosting our podcast sub series, and to its listeners for tuning into this episode of courage to advance where transformation Leadership isn’t about having all the answers, it’s about having the courage to find them

Maria Ross 41:27

for more on how to achieve radical success through empathy. Visit the empathy edge.com there you can listen to past episodes, access show notes and free resources. Book me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes, insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slicemaria. Never forget, empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place.

Cash flow, creativity, and compassion are not mutually exclusive™

April Hot Take: What’s Next for Empathy and Inclusion in the Workplace?

Here are some reflections and key takeaways from a recent webinar I co-hosted with my brilliant colleague and friend, Minette Norman. It was called “What’s Next: “What’s Next: The Future of Empathy and Inclusion in the Workplace.”

MInette is the co-author of The Psychological Safety Handbook and author of The Boldly Inclusive Leader. And together, we had things to say!

The goal of the session was simple but powerful: to create community during tough times and talk honestly about where we’re at, what’s challenging us, and where we go from here when it comes to empathy and inclusion at work.

Let me tell you—the conversation was real, and it was energizing!

To access the episode transcript, please scroll down below.

Key Takeaways:

Even with the current resistance to DEI, there is still a strong business case for it. DEI initiatives are proven to drive innovation, performance, and revenue.
Sometimes, rebranding DEI work as “belonging” or “inclusion” can help get buy-in.
Asking “What are we missing?” can unlock better outcomes, reduce risk, and help teams innovate.

“In these tough times, community matters. Empathy and inclusion are not trends—they’re leadership imperatives.” — Maria Ross

Episode References:

Share your opinion! Please fill out the short survey here at https://bit.ly/edge-feedback

Minette Norman: https://www.minettenorman.com

The Psychological Safety Handbook: https://thepsychologicalsafetyplaybook.com/

The Boldly Inclusive Leader: https://www.minettenorman.com/boldlyinclusiveleader

Medium: The Great DEI Hustle: White Americans Are the Real DEI Hires by Dr. Lauren Tucker

From Our Partner:

Go to sparkeffect.com/edge now and download your complimentary Professional and Organizational Alignment Review today.

Connect with Maria:

Get Maria’s books on empathy: Red-Slice.com/books

Learn more about Maria’s work: Red-Slice.com

Hire Maria to speak: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross

Take the LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy

LinkedIn: Maria Ross

Instagram: @redslicemaria

Facebook: Red Slice

Threads: @redslicemaria

FULL TRANSCRIPT:

Welcome to the empathy edge podcast, the show that proves why cash flow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. I’m your host, Maria Ross, I’m a speaker, author, mom, facilitator and empathy advocate. And here you’ll meet trailblazing leaders and executives, authors and experts who embrace empathy to achieve radical success. We discuss all facets of empathy, from trends and research to the future of work to how to heal societal divisions and collaborate more effectively. Our goal is to redefine success and prove that empathy isn’t just good for society. It’s great for everyone. It’s Maria Ross here, and welcome to another solo episode of the empathy edge. Today, I want to share some reflections and key takeaways from a recent webinar I co hosted with my brilliant colleague and friend, Minette Norman. It was called What’s Next, the future of empathy and inclusion in the workplace. Minette is the co author of the psychological safety handbook and author of The boldly inclusive leader. And together, we had things to say. The goal of the session was simple but powerful, to create community through tough times and talk honestly about where we’re at, what’s challenging us, and where we go from here when it comes to empathy and inclusion. At work, we invited some brilliant HR dei and culture leaders to the conversation, and let me tell you, it was real and it was energizing. So first of all, let’s talk about facing challenges in dei work. One thing that came up repeatedly was how emotionally draining dei work can be right now on, all of these professionals, a participant, shared that many of us are feeling low motivation in this current climate, and I know that feeling is widespread. There’s resistance fatigue, and in some places, a sense of fear about even using terms like diversity or equity. But here’s the thing, community is the antidote. We need to lean into these conversations with like minded individuals, find our support systems and remember we’re not in this work alone. Secondly, the business case is still strong. I shared some insights from a recent conversation that I had with fund advisors. Some companies aren’t ditching dei per se. They’re just rebranding it or quietly still committing to the initiatives that help make their business stronger to avoid regulatory scrutiny. That may sound disheartening, but it means the business case for inclusion still holds. Dei initiatives are proven to drive innovation, performance and revenue. Minette reminded us that many of the reactions we’re seeing are knee jerk. They won’t last forever, and we need to stay the course. And we briefly touched on data showing how white people have gained substantially from dei initiatives too. One article by Dr Lauren Tucker in medium really broke this down in an insightful way with references, and I’ll share it in the show notes she writes. And let’s not forget workplace culture improvements. Many of the workplace benefits we now take for granted, flexible work policies, paid parental leave, mental health support were fought for under the banner of dei but guess who benefits from these the most? That’s right, white men in high paying jobs. End quote. We also talked about the fact that empathy is connection, not conversion. Now, you know, I always say that empathy isn’t about being soft. It’s not about agreeing with everyone or being overly emotional. It’s about connection, valuing diverse perspectives, and understanding where others are coming from, so we can make better decisions. Empathy in leadership boosts engagement, retention and innovation, and it’s a skill you can cultivate. In fact, it’s one of the most important skills of inclusive leadership. Okay, then we tackled dealing with unempathetic people, because, of course, not everyone we work with is empathetic. One attendee raised an important point about the emotional toll of interacting with those who lack empathy. I emphasize the importance of self awareness and self care. Here. You can’t pour from an empty cup. Minette had a wonderful perspective. She calls these individuals empathy teachers. They’re not easy to deal with, but they help us grow our own empathy muscle. I can certainly attest to that listening for what we’re missing. I shared a fun story about using an empathy toy with teams, which underscored the power of. Diverse thinking. I actually had a conversation with the founder and the creator of the empathy toy on a past empathy edge podcast, and I’ll share the link in the show notes. Minette and I both agree, asking, What are we missing? Can unlock better outcomes, reduce risk and help teams innovate and being comfortable enough and willing enough to listen to the answer to that question requires empathy. Finally, we talked about some practical tools for inclusion. We wrapped up by discussing inclusive meetings, making sure everyone’s voice is heard now practically, sometimes rebranding dei work as belonging or inclusion can help get buy in. And in this discussion, we also shared some tools and resources for leaders to run more empathetic and inclusive meetings. My closing thoughts on all of this is that in these tough times, community matters, empathy and inclusion are not trends. They’re leadership imperatives. Manette and I are committed to helping you lead the way with practical tools, inspiring stories and the support you need. Most importantly, please remember you are not alone. We’re in this together, and there is power in numbers. It’s how every major cultural shift has been achieved and protected together. Now for those of you who couldn’t make this talk, please make sure you’re signed up for my email list at Red slice.com so do you don’t miss these invitations and opportunities. I will be doing more of these as the year goes on. So make sure you’re on that list and you can be included. Thanks for listening today. Please don’t forget to fill out my short listener survey as soon as possible. Go to bit.ly/edge-feedback, the link is also in the show notes. Like I said, it’s just five minutes of your time, but it’s so important to help me give you more of what you want and need. Thank you for listening to another episode of the empathy edge. If you like what you heard, you know what to do. Please share, rate, review and let other people know about the show, and please remember until next time that cash flow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be kind For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy. Visit the empathy edge.com there you can listen to past episodes, access show notes and free resources. Book me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes, insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slice Maria, never forget, empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place.

Cash flow, creativity, and compassion are not mutually exclusive™

Misha Safran: Joy + Empathy + Inclusion = A Winning Team

When you think of workplace wellness, you may picture gym memberships and yoga mats. But joy, empathy, and inclusion also create a healthy and high-performing workplace culture! We need to reimagine what wellness means!

Today, Misha Safran, shares how empathy intersects with inclusion to foster innovation and equity. We also discuss how to reframe the misconceptions about empathy that exist in high-pressure workplaces. With brilliant mindset shifts and practical tips, she shares how leaders can model empathy without feeling performative, and how to navigate conflict using empathy and emotional intelligence. Misha shares the four elements of joy and why you can be more successful when you embrace them so your team can break free from chaos and transform that energy into creativity, problem-solving, and success.

To access the episode transcript, please scroll down below.

Key Takeaways:

Empathy is love, care, and concern – not agreement. It’s having conversations, it’s listening to know what’s going on, and it’s having healthy boundaries.
Empathy before accusation.
Empathy might look different depending on personality – it doesn’t have to mean being touchy-feely or crying on the floor with your employees.
Especially in conflict, urgency causes chaos – slow down, take a pause, take a breath, and respond, don’t react. Slow down to build up.

“Ask questions for the person in front of you to grow, not for you to know.” — Misha Safran

From Our Partner:

Go to sparkeffect.com/edge now and download your complimentary Professional and Organizational Alignment Review today.

About Misha Safran, Founder, Center for Empathy and Emotional Intelligence

Misha Safran, an engaging keynote speaker and author, holds a Professional Coaching Certification (PCC) from the International Coaching Federation (ICF). She is the founder of CEEQ, the Center for Empathy and Emotional Intelligence, LLC, and in 2022 was honored with the CEO Award from the National Institute of Health (NIH) for her impactful work on a DEIA training team.

With infectious positivity, intuitive insights, and deep empathy, Misha creates safe spaces for individuals and teams to navigate discomfort while building essential skills. Her unique ability to support organizations in transforming conflict into connection, collaboration, and currency inspires communities to thrive, celebrate achievements, and foster renewed enthusiasm for collective work.

Misha’s passion lies in empowering people to reset their mindset, unlocking renewed energy, improved problem-solving, heightened creativity, and more thoughtful communication. She has dedicated her career to cultivating inclusive, sustainable relationships and fostering environments where everyone can succeed.

Connect with Misha:

CEEQ: ceeq.org

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/misha-safran

Facebook: facebook.com/CEEQempathy

Instagram: instagram.com/mishasafran

Workplace Wellness Program: Laughter to Joy Wellness Experience for Connection, Collaboration, and Sustainable Success – Schedule a consultation: misha@ceeq.org

Book: A Teacher’s Companion: Centering Empathy & Emotional Well-Being for Yourself and Your Students and bonus package for schools!

Connect with Maria:

Get Maria’s books on empathy: Red-Slice.com/books

Learn more about Maria’s work: Red-Slice.com

Hire Maria to speak: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross

Take the LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy

LinkedIn: Maria Ross

Instagram: @redslicemaria

Facebook: Red Slice

Threads: @redslicemaria

FULL TRANSCRIPT:

Maria, welcome to the empathy edge podcast, the show that proves why cash flow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. I’m your host, Maria Ross, I’m a speaker, author, mom, facilitator and empathy advocate. And here you’ll meet trailblazing leaders and executives, authors and experts who embrace empathy to achieve radical success. We discuss all facets of empathy, from trends and research to the future of work to how to heal societal divisions and collaborate more effectively. Our goal is to redefine success and prove that empathy isn’t just good for society. It’s great for business. When you think of workplace wellness, you may picture gym memberships and yoga mats, but joy, empathy and inclusion also create a healthy and high performing workplace culture. We need to reimagine what wellness means. My guest today, Misha Safran shares how empathy intersects with inclusion to foster innovation and equity. We also discuss how to reframe the misconceptions about empathy that exist in high pressure workplaces with brilliant mindset shifts and practical tips. She shares how leaders can model empathy without feeling performative or forced, and how to navigate conflict using empathy and emotional intelligence. Misha shares the four elements of joy and why you can be more successful when you embrace them, so your team can break free from the urgency that causes chaos and instead transform that energy into creativity, problem solving and success. Misha is an engaging keynote speaker and the founder of CEE Q, the Center for empathy and emotional intelligence. In 2022 she was honored with the CEO award from the National Institute of Health for her impactful work on a Deia training team with infectious positivity, intuitive insights and deep empathy. Misha creates safe spaces for individuals and teams to navigate discomfort while building essential skills. She’s also a musician and is fiercely committed to inclusion and showing how it enhances your team and business. Grab a beverage and listen up. You may even want to take notes, because Misha shares so many mindset shifting gems that will make you a better leader and a human being. Take a listen. Big. Welcome Misha Safran to the empathy edge podcast. This has been a while in the making, and I’m so glad we were able to connect and have your wonderful, beautiful soul on the podcast today. Thank

Misha Safran 02:47

you. I am delighted, and I’m sometimes it may have to marinate things for them to be really, really good. So here we are, finally together,

Maria Ross 02:55

exactly. And I should tell folks, you know, we know each other through a wonderful group of empathy practitioners, I guess you can call us empathy activists, empathy advocates, called the empathy Super Friends, and we’re a variety a collection of people that speak and teach and write about empathy from various perspectives. So we heard a little bit about you in the intro and the bio, but tell us about your particular work and how you got into this work. What’s your story?

Misha Safran 03:27

Thank you for asking. It is interesting to be able to share how I got into this, because I want to make it very clear to people that I’m not a victim, I’m a volunteer in my life, and I’m very resilient, and it’s a lot of forced resilience, but empathy came to me because I have had experiences where there was no empathy in the medical system. I had to advocate for myself over and over and over again that while you are the physician and you have a degree, I am Misha, and I know my body when I got pulled over by a law enforcement officer because of a sign that was only there one week that wanted to force a ticket down my throat. There was no empathy that, you know, I’ve been driving this road for 25 years, when I was in the car accident and the doctors were saying, you should be better. I know like but I’m not. So I found that, and also, as an educator, really wanting to support my families and trying not to give referrals to my students to only to find out that when I did, a student got expelled because it was his last chance. So I I’ve come through empathy in a lot of different ways and reasons, but mostly because I do believe

Maria Ross 04:37

we need more of it in the world. I love that, and I do want to quickly mention to people that not only are you a speaker and a coach and you know, a thought leader, but you’re also a singer and songwriter, and I know that you help express empathy and foster empathy and inclusion through your songwriting. So just like a little bit of a tangent, how does that make? Carry with your work on teaching and training, on empathy. Yeah, thank you.

Misha Safran 05:04

So actually, I got really excited. I got goosebumps when you started talking about that, because I we were going to talk about that. I have a release party coming for a professional my very first professionally produced song. It’s called, Are you willing? And what I’ve done, actually, in the last month or two, I’ve actually been doing presentations with my music, I’ve been giving my talks, and I’ve been incorporating my music. Most of my music is written to soothe my own soul, and what I’ve noticed is that it’s actually supported a lot of other people going through whatever they are. So I’ve written songs around depression, around people I know with addiction, I’ve written songs around social justice, and it’s a beautiful combination. It’s a wonderful marriage of who I am as a person and my own healing and what I get to give to others and supporting them on their

Maria Ross 05:49

journey. I love that. How did the center come to be the center for empathy and emotional intelligence? Is that just something that you created as a container for the work that you’re doing.

Misha Safran 06:00

No, well, let’s see, let me okay, I’ll give a very quick little story about it. So I was working for a company as an independent contractor, and I wasn’t super happy, and I was talking with my teammates, my colleagues, and I said, I don’t think I’m going to stay. I don’t know what to do. And one of my friends said, well, Misha, you are like your superpower is empathy and emotional intelligence. When you come into a room, that’s what shines. So I went home and I played with the wording and the language, and there it was. It’s a different emotional intelligence. And my dad had the Center for parent involvement, so there’s this feeling of it’s a center right, yeah, center around me. And not that I’m the center, but it’s the center right. The other component of that is that I really do want it to be bigger than me. And so I figured, you know, when you build it, they will come Yeah, or build it, they’ll have a place

Maria Ross 06:51

to go. Yes, my

Misha Safran 06:53

hope is that I will continue to create, navigate, meet, cultivate people who want to expand, yes, for greater access, because empathy is not we’ve had this conversation in the empathy activist. Some people think empathy is innate. Some people don’t, you know, and I personally feel like not everybody has the capacity right away to exercise empathy. I do believe, for some people, especially in neurodivergent communities, sometimes that empathy needs to be trained, needs to be really taught. And I know that because I have friends who are married to people who are not empathetic, and they’re working through that. So for me, the center is an opportunity at some point to really have workshops and trainings and coaches and counselors, and who knows what the dream can open up, right? And

Maria Ross 07:43

you already, you know you work with some very specific industries. Can you talk to us about that and why those industries?

Misha Safran 07:50

Yeah, absolutely. And referencing kind of back to what I was sharing the beginning. My three industries are education, medical organizations and law and that could be law students, medical students, and, you know, university human resources in those areas, mostly because I’ve had a lot of experience in all three of those areas, either as a consumer, a client or an educator myself. So I find that those are the three areas where they impact the consumer so intensely and widely that there needs to be some training and some support, and they need empathy. I mean, law enforcement officers, they see horrible things. When you think about, you know, nurses and doctors, they see horrible things. Educators. We’ve had classrooms of kids whose parents are half the parent is in one parent’s in jail, and some parents, you know, they don’t have jobs, they’re not eating breakfast in the mornings. So they’re the people that we those industries serve. Need to have more love. I was working with a company back in April, that was a while ago, but that specific community was talking about how their clients are difficult, and I asked them, what would it look like to actually, maybe you do a little frame switch and say, My clients are struggling, and the room was silent because people couldn’t fathom that. Oh, wow, yeah. Well, we’re struggling. So of course, they’re struggling because a lot of people, and we also had this conversation Maria, we with Rob and other people. Rob and other people in our group. You know, empathy doesn’t necessarily mean agreement. No, it doesn’t mean that I’m going to give in empathy. You’re hearing somebody’s truth, because their truth deserves to exist. So somebody’s hurting. Okay, they might come out and act sideways because they’re hurting, but if we look at difficult rather than looking at them as hurting or struggling, we’re going to cut off the opportunity for empathy or even conversation.

Maria Ross 09:47

And I think that’s, you know, that’s such a great point, Misha, because it’s so true in any circumstance where you’ve got people acting in destructive or, you know, cruel ways, it’s off. And you know, it’s that old adage of hurt people. And you really can feel the shift when you look at them with grace and mercy versus antagonism. There really is a shift in even your own, like heart rate and blood pressure, when you start to think, I try to practice this on the road when I’m driving, and really try to flip the like I don’t. I can’t assume everybody has destructive intent. And so when you look at things like that, or you look at you, we talk a lot about a society. We talk about you never know what people are going through, but it’s really hard to remember that when their behavior is impacting you, especially if you know number one, it’s making your work or your goal difficult, or, number two, you’re an empath, and you’re taking in that kind of negativity and that behavior. It can be really hard to find a center and find the grounding. So I think it’s wonderful that you’re really focusing on specific industries where there’s challenges, and I love how you described it, where these are industries where their end customer, whether it’s a patient or a student or a client, is really going through something, or could be really going through something. And so that’s when it gets harder than versus, like, working in an accounting office where we just got, you know, we’ve got difficult, struggling people in the accounting office. You’re dealing with a population that these folks in these industries are serving that could really be draining if they’re not careful. Yeah. Oh, I love it. Okay, so you also talk a lot and teach a lot about the intersection of empathy and inclusion. So can you talk to us about that intersection, and especially where it comes into play fostering equitable work environments and diverse work environments. We’ve talked a lot on this show about the benefits of empathy, fueling diversity and inclusion efforts, but tell us, from your perspective, how do you see that intersecting, and where is the missed opportunity for a lot of organizations? Yeah, thank you.

Misha Safran 12:02

So it’s funny, I’m still kind of thinking about something that we were talking about before, so I want, I’m going to wrap a bow on that one by saying just real quickly, yeah, please that when I first started really focusing on empathy, I actually had somebody in my life say, Oh yeah, you’re so empathetic towards them, right? And I had to remind them and myself that, and I said this a little bit earlier, and this leads into the question you just asked me, Is that my empathy is love, care and concern, but not necessarily agreement? So in the workplace, when we’re talking about inclusion, we’re not necessarily saying that having empathy for the people in our space is that I’m going to give you everything you ask for 100% I’m going to excuse you because you’re late 15 times. It’s about finding out what is their truth, what’s happening for them and what is within our abilities that to do to support them so they can be successful. I am very fortunate to be working part time for a coaching institute, and the owner is incredibly empathetic. There are people that have missed shifts, that have been late, that have forgotten this or that, and she’s not fired a single one of them, and they are all thriving because she works with each and every person to find out, what do you need to be successful? There’s no anger. There’s no so it kind of goes along with my acronym that I created, which is cape. I tell it businesses to put on their super cape. And cape is compassionate communication, assuming positive intent, the principles of inclusion and belonging and then empathy before accusation. And she is a model of this. I mean, I’m shout out to her. Lisa Fink, she’s amazing. She really honors each and every employee at her company, and make sure she has those conversations. So when we talk about inclusivity in the workplace, we talk about the intersection of inclusivity and empathy. It’s having the conversation. It’s being willing to take the time to find out what’s going on and having really healthy boundaries. Yes, because it’s not that I’m asking what’s going on, because I’m going to fix you, because you’re not broken, right? And you’re resilient, and you can take care of what you need to take care of, but sometimes we need an extra ear to hear it out loud. And amazingly enough, even with my coaching clients, they figure it out. They have all their answers. Yeah, so inclusivity and empathy intersect at that conversation. As far as I’m concerned,

Maria Ross 14:40

I love that. I mean, that’s with my new book, The Empathy dilemma, talking about those pillars of being both effective and empathetic as a leader means we don’t have to choose, and that’s those are the myths I talk about in that book, and the myths I talk about in my workshops, that we’re not embracing empathy at work because we think it’s something else. We think it’s allowing people to walk all over us, or, like you said, agreeing with people or just being nice, like being nice is wonderful, but it doesn’t mean you see my point of view. So I love that idea of looking at it. I like to make empathy accessible for leaders that are a little skeptical by saying, think of it as information gathering. Be a little bit of a detective and find out what’s going on for somebody. I love how you framed it. Of it’s just a conversation. It’s being willing and open to having the conversation. And I need to shout this out, because this is a quotable for folks empathy before accusation. Love that so much. Thank you. Well, you know I

Misha Safran 15:36

that I have to say real quickly that came from and I apologize to the audience who might be listening to this. I don’t remember the young man’s name. I feel like the last name. Yeah. Anyways, it was that actually came. It from the depths of my body. That phrase when I listened to the news review of the young man, the young black man, who was on a white man’s porch looking for his siblings, and the white man shot him without even knowing that this kid was lost. So I immediately like through my body that empathy before accusation, empathy before assumption. Yeah, listen, I’ve got so much pain in my body just recalling that event. So I’m sorry for the trigger warning for anybody might be listening. It’s really in in coaching, we teach our students as they’re becoming coaches, curiosity cures the coach, right? So the conversation and what you just shared as well is like it doesn’t have to be anything more than inquiry, building information, getting more knowledge. I

Maria Ross 16:33

love that so much. And we make a lot of assumptions in the groups we swim in, whether it’s an organizational group or our family or our friends or our neighbors or our, you know, civic group that we’re in, we spend a lot of time making accusations because and making assumptions because it’s easier for our brains to slot people into groups when we make those assumptions, right, and we have to fight against that absolutely.

Misha Safran 16:59

And those assumptions drain our energy. Empathy is so kind and generous and loving, why wouldn’t you want to have more

Maria Ross 17:05

empathy? Right? And it doesn’t, and I love that too, because it doesn’t have to be the touchy feely i You’ve heard me say this many times that I always say you don’t have to be crying on the floor with your employees to show empathy. So if you’re not necessarily a touchy feely, huggy, you know person, it doesn’t mean you can’t be empathetic. It’s just going to look different. Yeah, absolutely. Okay, so given that I want to talk about, the common thing I hear when people are being quote, unquote, trained on empathy or learning empathy, is, how can leaders model empathy authentically without feeling performative or forced. And I have, like, a unique perspective on this, but I want to hear how you help people through that, through getting over that fear of, oh, this is going to feel really forced and

Misha Safran 17:52

performative. I don’t know that many people are going to like my answer, but it’s called practice. Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, and honestly, I will encourage a lot of my clients to work with friends and family members first, to take a few moments at home to ask somebody how your day was and mean it, and listen to the answer, yeah, right, mean it, and then be willing. And what I mean by mean it right, just like what you said is to listen to it, right, listen to it and then be curious about it. And so it really is almost like coaching, where we ask open ended questions, you know, how was your day? Okay, maybe I tell you, well, it was, it was a little hard. And I could say something sincere, like, you know, you seem like you’re tired, and I can hear that it was a hard day. But then you could also ask What was hard about it. And instead of saying, Oh, that’s it, that’s not empathy, by the way,

18:46

just in case, right? But

Misha Safran 18:50

it’s like, what was hard about it? Oh, I that would make sense that that might be hard. Now, if it doesn’t make sense to you, then you don’t say it. So it’s really about being truthful. But back to that, that baseline of curiosity about it, is there anything else you want to you know, anything more you want to share about that? But it takes practice for some people, natural empaths, some people are naturally curious, and some people really struggle or have social awkwardness and feel like their next question might be dumb or not welcome, right? And the fact of the matter is, is that when I’ve had more people in my training say to me that they enjoy being with people when they share vulnerably, but again, like it literally doesn’t mean you have to start crying, right? It’s being able to say, you know, I’m feeling a little nervous right now. Yeah, tell me about that. Yeah. So practice is my first big response. Second is really just maybe learning some open ended questions that could support you in getting more information. In the coaching world, I always tell my clients who are getting their credentials, ask questions for the person in front of you to grow, not for you to know. Ooh, it’s a different level. Love, curiosity. What could I ask that supports you in growing this is really effective in the workplace, because you maybe are somebody who is a direct manager, and you are really good at micromanaging, and you never delegate anything, because you have to have it just right, and you’re controlling the situation. But actually building trust and empathy with your clients is your coworkers and your direct reports, is to really ask them, What do you think should be done in this situation? How would you go about doing that? What would potentially be an obstacle for you, right? And so if you’re asking questions for your person to grow and not for you to know, then you’re giving them space and room, right? That phone, oddly enough, is empathy, yeah, and

Maria Ross 20:46

you’re giving them an opportunity to have their own epiphany. You know, how often have you or I been in a conversation with someone when they ask me a question? It’s like, oh, that’s a really good question. Let me think about that for a second. That’s where the learning is. That’s where people can get in deeper touch with what they’re thinking. And I love your answer, because that’s the answer I give about you have to practice it, and it might feel icky at first, it might feel uncomfortable, but it doesn’t mean it’s not worth it. Yeah, it’s memory. One thing I will say that’s kind of funny is, you know, I do tell leaders now, look, if you’ve never been interested in your people before, and just one day you start going, you know, Misha, tell me about your weekend. Tell me about people might be on the defensive. You need to be prepared for that, that they’re going to wonder what’s going on. Yeah, right. But you can also be transparent with your team, and this is where you can be vulnerable. Is, hey, starting today, starting this year, maybe my, you know, my goal this year was to improve my leadership style. You don’t necessarily have to tell someone you’re working on your empathy. You can just say, tell your team, hey, I’m working on my leadership style and working on being a better communicator, if that feels comfortable for you. And so, you know, I’m going to be trying some different things. I just want you to be prepared that I might ask different questions or engage with you in a different way. Nothing to be alarmed about. Yeah, I was going to say, and that also models for them that self improvement is a constant goal.

Misha Safran 22:16

So what that leads me to want to call out is having empathy for yourself, yes, right? So as a leader, if you mess up one day while you’re on this new trajectory of adding empathy into your leadership, uh huh. Hey, to say, You know what, Maria, I did that wrong. I really feel like I might have stepped on a toe or said something that didn’t work. Can I try that again? You know, and really having grace and for yourself and empathy for yourself so that you can keep trying and not give up, because it’s not going to be it’s in order for it really to work, you have to be willing to have it messy at first. Yeah, yeah, like you did the ick. I mean it. You’ve gotta be willing to be messy and but vulnerably, transparently messy. Yes, people know what to expect, and that this is, oh, yeah, okay, sure, let’s try again, and being willing, then to give empathy and grace to others, yeah, so that each person knows that they can make a mistake and survive it, yeah, that they can, you know, have a faux pas and have a conversation about it, so that it can change for The future, but that they not all of a sudden a bad human being, even a bad apple has a lot of good parts still to it. Why do people throw out a whole apple and it’s just a tiny part that’s bad?

Maria Ross 23:36

I love that, and I also just want to Yes and that, because there’s also the perception that if I admit I made a mistake, or I admit I did something wrong, that’s going to weaken me, but you can do it in a way that you have confidence and you own your mistake. So look at the difference between, you know, someone sort of begging for forgiveness, versus wow, I didn’t do that very well. I’m really sorry about that. Misha, let me try this again. That’s a much more confident way to admit your vulnerability. And like you said, I love what you said, because it’s about giving other people permission to do that too, and you won’t lose respect. You won’t be weakened by doing it that way, if anything, you’re going to level up people respecting you by being truthful and owning and being self aware enough that you saw that you made a mistake, versus ignorant about the impact of your behavior. So hiding it under the rug, or hiding it under the rug, because everyone

Misha Safran 24:37

really doesn’t hide very well, no, really gross and big, and he used to trip over it and

Maria Ross 24:43

and it’s a bad look like you know you as a leader, might say, I’m not going to admit that I screwed that up. Everyone knows you did, so just own it. Be like that was not great. That was not my finest hour. Let’s move forward.

Misha Safran 24:55

That’s another element of empathy is really being willing to, like you said, admit those mistakes when. I was working with another company, and we were doing trainings. One of the examples we would bring into the workplace was the Challenger, the person who was working on the, I think they were called the O rings for the shuttle,

Maria Ross 25:13

knew or the space shuttle. Challenger, yeah, yes, knew that something was wrong and tried to tell people, This shouldn’t take off. This shouldn’t take off. This shouldn’t take off. But the President, or whoever it was, at the time, excuse me, said, No, we have to, it’s got to take off. And it exploded. He was being vulnerable. He was sharing, there’s a mistake here. There’s a problem. And so we want to create environments in the workplace where people can say, Stop, there’s this is a problem. Yeah, not wait until something goes wrong to fix it. If somebody is willing to come and say, I’m a little concerned, we need to have the open space and empathy to allow for vulnerable honest Well, I mean, that’s fundamentally the things that have happened at Boeing and how it’s impacting their bottom line, it is impacting that organization to not be willing to take a step back and admit mistakes and do things over and do them the right way. So we’re seeing it play out in real time of the very, very real consequences, not only on your people, but on your industry and on your sustainability as a business, we’re seeing that play out in real time. So appreciate that. Okay, so last question for you is, what are some practical strategies for navigating conflict using empathy and emotional intelligence? Can you give us some examples, or some role plays, or anything like that that can really help people understand the role that empathy can play in conflict, defusement at work or in any organization.

Misha Safran 26:46

And I will tell you right now, type a people who are extremely productive, based, task oriented, they’re not going to like my answer, because it’s all about slowing down, because urgency causes chaos. That is just absolutely bottom line, that’s my phrase. I’m taking it. I’m going all the way with it. Urgency caused the chaos. And what a lot of people do not like, especially in business, is that in order to do this, they have to slow down, they have to take a pause. They have to take a breath and highly encourage inhale through the nose to five, exhale to seven, you know, and exhale through your mouth, because you can, you know, make sure that you’re really supporting your parasympathetic

Maria Ross 27:28

so inhale through your nose to count of five, maybe six, but then exhale at least a little bit longer than that, through your mouth, because it activates the parasympathetic system, which helps calm your nerves and that then already is diffusing the urgency once you have done that pause and that breath, you are much more resourced to have a conversation or even tell somebody you’re not ready for a conversation, yeah, so they can respond instead of react. And reactionary behavior is what tips things over the edge and makes it Messier, whereas being able to pause, take time, reflect, listen to a situation, rather than make those assumptions, all of that is going to create a healthier environment where you have people who are happy to be with you, working with you, working for you. And I will say that when I was a high school teacher, I had parents who were very angry one year, because when I got to that school, their students were far behind others, so I took them back two months in curriculum up in arms. What are you doing? They’re never going to be able to be ready for this that or the other. That class period in particular was two months ahead of all the other classes by the end of the year. So slow it down or to build it up. I love that slow down to build up words of wisdom. What a nice gem to leave us with. And I just want to share too. This is why I loved your work. Is because even you know, when I talk about the self care pillar in my five pillars of empathetic and effective empathy, I offer some actionable strategies and tactics for folks to look at self care, not as a luxury, but as a necessity, for you to be able to show up as the leader you want to be, and as the leader that gets results. So you know, it’s not a luxury. We have to have that capacity full, or we can’t take on anyone’s perspective without fear or defensiveness or anger, and you know, we I talked about this on the show before. Folks have heard me say this. You know, it’s one of the biggest lessons I’ve learned as a parent, is I am not a good parent when I don’t take a breath, I am so reactionary and so just not able to listen. And nothing has kind of smacked me in the face about that more than having a child that challenges you every day. He is my biggest, biggest empathy teacher. So there you go. Well,

Misha Safran 29:49

actually, you know, I know it’s so funny how we talk about some things and we don’t talk about other things, and we are truly aligned leader. Care is one of the final. Points of my presentations, and I encourage organizations to do I’m now a certified laughter yoga facilitator. Yes, please

Maria Ross 30:07

tell us about that, because I remember you talking about that the

Misha Safran 30:11

laughter I’ve had people with Parkinson’s. I’ve had people who are elderly and sad and lonely. I’ve had people from all walks of life say this has really changed. In fact, the quote that I want to use right now I just got on Sunday last week, the participant said to me, my myths, m, y, t, h, S, my myths are crumbling. It was powerful. And what I learned from that person was the assumptions and the stories that they’ve been telling themselves. And this goes for all leaders out there, all and every single person in this world is a leader. You just have to decide, you know, are you a visible leader or an internal leader, whatever it is, but having that self care, being willing to take care of yourself, encompassing the four elements of joy, which are dance, play, singing and laughter, that is critical to being able to take care of others, have empathy for yourself and have empathy for others in the way we walk our life together.

Maria Ross 31:05

I love that. And can you briefly describe what the laughter yoga practice is? Because I just think it’s so great. And I’ll put a link to you know, obviously we’re gonna have all your links in the show notes, but tell us quickly what the laughter yoga practice is good. Yes, it

Misha Safran 31:22

feels silly. And a lot of people are like, Oh, I don’t want to be performative or fake it till I make it, but it actually it’s so laughter. Yoga is a unique concept where we participate in deep breathing exercises and laughter exercises, and typically we do it in a group setting where there’s eye contact, because the laughter can become contagious and then authentic. The other part of that is is you, the more you laugh with the deep breath, you bring more oxygen to your brain and your body and the brain or your bodies. Don’t know the difference between simulated laughter and authentic laughter. So it’s a real health benefit. It started back in about 1995 with Dr Kataria in Mumbai, India, in a park with five people. And today there are over 1000s of people with 120 laughter social clubs all over the world. And they have been in nursing homes, in schools, in law firms, in medical offices everywhere that ready needs to lift their spirit, but also have health care for themselves. That may not be that 20 mile marathon, right? And the other thing I want to leave you with is that children, typically, on average, laugh three to 400 times a day, and adults

Maria Ross 32:30

only 15. Oh, that’s so

Misha Safran 32:33

sad, yeah. So think about when you laugh, how it makes you feel, if, when, and the all the other pieces that you’re learning to laugh for no reason at all, no comedy, no jokes, you know, not because of humor, but you’re actually learning just to laugh as a form of

Maria Ross 32:48

exercise. Yeah, I love that well and kind of getting back, putting a bow on that is really that ability to take care of yourself in that way and that unique way helps you show up as the leader you want to be, and I love that you’re doing that for organizations and for teams like we need just like I’ve talked in the past about doing improv exercises as a team to build trust and foster creativity and foster resilience. Similarly, we need to be experimenting with these team building and team bonding exercises that we do. It’s not all just about trust falls, and there’s a way to tap into our ability to get to know each other and understand each other and collaborate with each other. And these kinds of things like laughter yoga, also force us to look at each other, which is what I love about what you just said. So Misha, so many good things. We could talk so much longer, but we have to wrap so I will have all of your information and links in the show notes, as well as links to your workplace wellness program, your laughter to joy wellness experience, and your book and bonus package for schools specifically. So I know there’s a lot of great things. We’ll put all the links to your website and to stay in touch with you. But for folks that are on the go, where’s a good place or two that they can connect with you and learn more about your work,

Misha Safran 34:08

thank you so absolutely. I would love for people to reach out to me on LinkedIn, and that information will also be in the links from Maria and my website is very easy. W, w.ce, eq.org, and that stands for center for empathy and emotional intelligence. Ceq.org

Maria Ross 34:23

love it. Thank you so much for your time today and your insights. What a great conversation. Thank

Misha Safran 34:28

you. And I’m sure you’re a fabulous parent, by the way,

Maria Ross 34:32

thank you. Thank

Misha Safran 34:33

you everyone, and

Maria Ross 34:35

thank you everyone for listening to another episode of the empathy edge podcast. If you like what you heard, you know what to do. Please rate, review and share with a friend or a colleague, and until next time, please remember that cash flow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be kind. For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy. Visit the empathy Ed. Dot com, there you can listen to past episodes, access show notes and free resources. Book me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes, insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slice Maria, never forget, empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place. You.

Cash flow, creativity, and compassion are not mutually exclusive™

David Bedrick, JD, Dipl. PW: The Unshaming Way

There’s a powerful psychological state that can paralyze us, interfere with effective relationships, block our empathy, and cause us to inflict harm. It’s called shame.
Today, David Bedrick shares what shame is, how it’s created, and its connection to trauma. Some say shame keeps us humble, but David shares why we don’t need shame because it’s not the same as embarrassment or regret. We unpack why shame is not a feeling but a psychological state that can leave you numb – and how you can instead create a space of safety and security within yourself. David shares how we can snap out of a shame spiral in the moment and also gives insights as to why some people may feel a need to shame others. David makes us think about our need to “solve,” or pathologize as he puts it, shame, anger, depression, and the like rather than process root causes to make meaning. He offers an intriguing thought experiment to try to break yourself of this tendency! Lastly, we touch on how to unashame conflict and dialogue through conflict in a more productive way.

To access the episode transcript, please scroll down below.

Key Takeaways:

Shame is different from embarrassment or humiliation. Shame is a psychological state that may have feelings associated with it.
Negative feelings are not bad – they can even be helpful for understanding our behavior and lead us to making an action toward repair.
Say the criticisms in your head aloud from the perspective of the negatives – it gives you a chance to respond and advocate for yourself.

“If shame enters my system, the only thing I care about is removing the bad experience I have in myself. I don’t care about you. I care about being low. In the fully shame psyche, you don’t exist as a person that matters to me at all.” — David Bedrick, JD, Dipl. PW

Episode References:

The Unshaming Way: amazon.com/Unshaming-Way-Compassionate-Dismantling-Shame-Heal/dp/B0CWL19X7G
The Empathy Edge: Edwin Rutsch: How “Empathy Circles” Can Change the World

From Our Partner:

Go to sparkeffect.com/edge now and download your complimentary Professional and Organizational Alignment Review today.

About David Bedrick, JD, Dipl. PW Founder, The Santa Fe Institute for Shame-based Studies and Author of The Unshaming Way

David is a teacher, counselor, and attorney. He was adjunct faculty at the University of Phoenix and the Process Work Institute in the U.S. and Poland. He is the founder of the Santa Fe Institute for Shame-based Studies, where he offers facilitation training to deepen the skills and awareness of therapists, coaches, and healers and workshops for individuals to further their own personal development. He is a writer for Psychology Today and the author of four books: Talking Back to Dr. Phil: Alternatives to Mainstream Psychology; Revisioning Activism: Bringing Depth, Dialogue, and Diversity to Individual and Social Change; and You Can’t Judge a Body by Its Cover: 17 Women’s Stories of Hunger, Body Shame and Redemption. His recent book, The Unshaming Way, has been endorsed by Gabor Mate.

Connect with David:

Santa Fe Institute for Shame-based Studies: davidbedrick.com

Facebook: facebook.com/david.bedrick.9

Instagram: instagram.com/david.bedrick

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FULL TRANSCRIPT:

Maria, welcome to the empathy edge podcast, the show that proves why cash flow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. I’m your host, Maria Ross, I’m a speaker, author, mom, facilitator and empathy advocate. And here you’ll meet trailblazing leaders and executives, authors and experts who embrace empathy to achieve radical success. We discuss all facets of empathy, from trends and research to the future of work to how to heal societal divisions and collaborate more effectively. Our goal is to redefine success and prove that empathy isn’t just good for society. It’s great for business. There’s a powerful psychological state that can paralyze us, interfere with effective relationships, block our empathy and cause us to inflict harm. It’s called shame. Today, we’re going to unpack what shame is and how it’s not only harmful to your soul, but prevents you from tapping into empathy for others. My guest is David belder, founder of the Santa Fe Institute For shame based studies, where he offers facilitation training to deepen the skills and awareness of therapists, coaches and healers, as well as workshops for individuals to further their own personal development. He’s a writer for Psychology Today, and the author of four books, including his latest, the unshaming way today, David shares what shame is, how it’s created, and its connection to trauma. Some say shame keeps us humble, but David shares why we don’t need shame, because it’s not the same as embarrassment or regret. We’ll unpack why shame is not a feeling but a psychological state that can leave you numb, and how you can instead create a space of safety and security within yourself. David shares how we can snap out of a shame spiral in the moment, and also gives insights as to why some people may feel a need to shame others. David makes us think about our need to solve or pathologize, as he puts it, shame, anger, depression and the like, rather than process root causes to make meaning. And he offers an intriguing thought experiment to try to break yourself of this tendency. Lastly, we touch on how to unshame conflict instead and dialog through conflict in a more productive way. There were so many gems in this episode. Take a listen. David, welcome to the empathy edge podcast to help us unpack all things shame, which is a little bit of a scary topic, I know for some people, but it’s so important in being able to name it and claim it and recognize it so that we can leave room to embrace our empathy. So

David Bedrick JD, Dipl. PW 02:44

welcome to the show. Thank you. Pleasure to be here with you.

Maria Ross 02:47

So my first question, as it is for all my guests, just briefly tell us how you got to this work. How did you get to this work in shame? Oh,

David Bedrick JD, Dipl. PW 02:56

well, the first thing is that is a story like for many of us, the gifts that we have, I call it the genius, but on meaning the genius, the spirit of our gifts, is usually woven into our story, the wounded healer. We can call it that. And I grew up in a family of a father who used fists and belts to express his rage. We can call that abuse. That would be the right word, violence. Those would be the right words, traumatizing. That would be the right word. So that’s a real thing, a big deal. And I had a mother who was relatively disempowered. I’m 69 so that was a generation, not that everybody’s empowered today. And being disempowered for her meant I have to act like this is not happening. I have to act like I’m not in a family house, house, sorry, family house with violence in it. I have to deny it and dismiss it. That wouldn’t happen. Your father would never do that. I’m making the sounds of it right, bleeding that she had. I’m not putting her down. That was how she coped. I said, Mom, look what’s happening. He would never do that, even if she was watching the violence. He would say the next day that didn’t happen, you’re getting so upset. Why do you get so angry about things? So in that story, you have two parts. You have a perpetrator of a kind of a violence, a story for someone else, could be a parent or a teacher or a culture or a police officer or a hospital that says you’re a person of color, we don’t think that you have pain. The perpetrating energy could be a system or person, and there’s a mother figure, it wouldn’t have to be a mother. I’m not blaming mothers that says that’s not really happening. Why are you thinking those things? Maybe you’re making things up. Maybe you have an emotional problem, not a violence problem. So when I take in her, that mother, I then deny my experience, dismiss my experience, and I end up with two beliefs that get entered into my body and psyche. What’s wrong with me? Why am I like this? Why am I angry? How come I do it? Why am I said? Said, if maybe I need someone to heal me and make me a better person, a forgiving person, a good person, a not angry person. Or I guess maybe I don’t matter that much because there’s a lot of difficulties, but no one’s taking them seriously. So then I think, well, maybe my views, my opinions, my experiences, don’t matter so much. So when a person walks around with a What’s wrong with me? Why am I like this? Maybe I don’t matter that much. Maybe I should withdraw and not bring myself out so much. I call that experience, that belief shame. Think of this word. It’s like self annihilating you as you are, and your experience and your hurts and your feelings and your opinions make them go away.

Maria Ross 05:41

Yeah. Well, so that’s such a profound story. And I think what I’m hearing from that is where shame exists is there’s sort of a perpetrator and a denier, and sometimes the denier is external, but it’s sometimes the denier internal as well.

David Bedrick JD, Dipl. PW 05:56

Absolutely, if you they go together. So let’s say you as a woman, identify person. I think you know, right? So let’s say you say I went and I spoke my mind the other day, and then afterwards, I’m thinking of a client, a woman client. Afterwards, she said, Oh my gosh, I probably said too much last night. Why did I say so much? Why did I listen to what’s going on inside the head? What did I do? I really don’t try to do that. I should have listened more. I mean, I think those exact words I may took up too much space. So in that case, she has an internalized oppression, something that says you as a woman should not take up too much space. And if you do, because you had a couple of glasses of wine, you’re going to have to suffer the criticism you should feel really bad about that. Make Yourself Smaller, shrink yourself. Be a nice I’m there for other people, listening. Person, again, lives in her head. So in that case, it’s an outer situation, a social condition, many women have internalized, not all. I’m not trying to generalize well with but I’ve read enough and studied enough to know that that’s true. And then when she goes out and says, Wait a second, Maria, I have my opinion. David, wait a second. I don’t think you’re right. Let me tell you what. Listen and I have some authority. I’m going to speak with some authority and power. She might get shame entered. I’m too talkative, I’m too loud, I’m too much. I shouldn’t be so sensitive to things that point. I’m too much. I’m too sensitive that shame something’s wrong with I’m not just a woman coming into her power, a woman who has every right to speak. I’m a person who’s doing something wrong. I should go get healing. So I’m quote, unquote around that, so I’m less like that. Wow,

Maria Ross 07:32

yeah, there’s so much there. And I think that’s a really great definition, because it’s with that viewpoint of shame. It’s very different from embarrassment and humiliation. There’s just there’s an element of almost these two opposing forces, each trying to get heard within your own head and also externally to you, and you’re trying to navigate those and the feeling you’re left with is shame. Would you actually call shame a feeling or psychological state?

David Bedrick JD, Dipl. PW 08:00

I would call it a psychological state. There are feelings associated with it. But here’s the problem, most people who think about shame and who’ve done great been able to have done great work on that, describe shame as this incredibly painful feeling, but most shame goes with no feeling at all. For instance, let’s go back to that story of that imaginary woman, not only right? And let’s say she says I was so good tonight. I really listened to people, and I didn’t cut anybody off, and I really didn’t push my own point of view. I feel good. So now listen, what’s opera inside something’s operating saying you could feel good about yourself if you shrink, make yourself smaller. Don’t write about intelligence. She’s not talking about saying I had the most painful experience tonight. Your shame is in powerfully operating on whether she’s herself, how she feels it, how she connects with people, how she influences people, whether her intelligence is going to get seen, whether she’s going to feel be invited into people’s workplaces, all kinds of things, but she doesn’t have any apparent negative feelings. Wow, there’s almost that most shame is like that. Most like, oh my gosh, there are oh my gosh, you humiliated me on the podcast. And I’m like, Oh my gosh. But most shame was not like that. Yeah,

Maria Ross 09:16

it almost seems very numbing and paralyzing versus feeling. So thank you for that. You know, as we’re here on the empathy edge, how do you feel that shame impedes or hinders our ability to access our empathy for other people in what ways? How does that manifest? I got almost

David Bedrick JD, Dipl. PW 09:36

fury when you asked me, that’s funny. I didn’t wasn’t expecting that, because it’s such an important question, because there’s an idea that some people have been taught, you need a certain amount of shame, because I should feel ashamed if I do something gross to you, right, right, to a child or to a bunch of people, right? Shouldn’t I feel bad,

Maria Ross 09:59

right? Otherwise, I’m. Sociopath, right? That’s the thing we tell ourselves, yeah, you need shame.

David Bedrick JD, Dipl. PW 10:03

And I think that’s, I understand what they’re saying. I do need some feeling that’s not so pleasant inside of myself, but that’s not shame. That’s like, oh my gosh, embarrassment, or oh my gosh, I feel guilty, or I really care, oh my gosh, Maria, I don’t even know you. When I did that, I feel really bad remorse. How can I I’m accountable? I maybe have to I write a letter into your audience and say that that was me. What can I do to repair those are all appropriate. Oh, David, that was I feel terrible. David, why did you do that? Oh, shit, that was a mistake. That’s not shame, right? That’s appropriate feelings that lead me to make changes, right? Shame. If shame enters my system, let’s say I do something gross to you here, right? If shame enters my system, the only thing I care about is removing the bad experience I have in myself. I don’t care about you. I care about I’m low. I’m glued to my shame

Maria Ross 11:02

existent for me, right? You’re in self preservation at that,

David Bedrick JD, Dipl. PW 11:05

in my feelings. And what do I need to do? Should I lie? Should I change? Should I steal? Should I make something up? Should I make a persona around this genuine empathy for what you went through and that I actually hurt you and it matters to me? There’s no such thing in this, in the fully shame psyche. You don’t exist as a person that matters to me at all. I think

Maria Ross 11:25

that’s so important for us to understand, because we do tend to lump all those things together, and it’s okay to have regret, it’s okay to make a mistake and feel bad about it, yeah. But I think the difference I’m seeing is that when you feel those other things, you can make an action towards repair, versus if you’re in the shame mode, like we said, You’re so much into self preservation, you’re not even thinking about the perspective or the viewpoint of the other person.

David Bedrick JD, Dipl. PW 11:49

Yeah, no, people don’t exist. In a sense, the shame is self annihilating. So I’m not really here. I can’t really, I can’t, for instance, I won’t be able to think and explore. So, David, you said this rough thing with Maria. By the way, everybody, I have nothing rough to say.

Maria Ross 12:05

These are all scenarios. We also know.

David Bedrick JD, Dipl. PW 12:09

What was in you, David, when you wanted to say that? Well, it was a bad thing. I was a terrible thing. I I know. But what was in you Was there an energy that you felt held back about Was there some way that you need to express something? Maybe then you’ve only belonged to Maria. Let’s get to know something about what you did not like you should be punished. I mean, let’s get to know maybe you did something. Sometimes I give my wife, married for 20 years, Lisa, sometimes I give her a little I’m calling it a jab, not a physical jab, a couple of sarcastic jokes, right? I do that more than two times. He says, So, David, what’s going on? That was the third little

Maria Ross 12:45

the third little nudge, yeah. He says to me, are

David Bedrick JD, Dipl. PW 12:49

you taking me on a guild trip? Should we? Should I pack my bags? He says, I give her a little guilt, right? So, yeah, I’m full of shame. I’m just like, I didn’t do that, or she’s invisible. But then I can actually say, Huh, what did I do? I did the bad thing. I’m a bad person, I know, but what’d you do? Right? Something had happened the other day. I never talked to her about that’s really been upsetting me. So now I’m actually doing a deeper repair. I see what’s going on, but I have ability to reflect and think maybe there’s something in me that I needed to deal with, yeah, with her, not by making her feel guilty and giving her indirect jabs, right? Supporting that, but I’m like, maybe there’s a reason. Maybe there was something in me, huh? Maybe I should get to know myself deeper, not trying to figure out how to censor myself and impress myself, right? You get to know myself well, that’s,

Maria Ross 13:35

I mean, that’s also like we talk about that a lot on the show as well, is like that sense of emotional regulation, where you can sort of look objectively at your behavior and have the presence to say, Hmm, what’s the root cause of that? That’s why do I feel this way? I do this a lot. You know, I have a 10 and a half year old son, and we don’t, I don’t always have the best interactions with him, and when I don’t, I kind of think back, like, what contributed to that? Was it just that he was being mouthy, or did I just get off a really difficult client call? Yeah, and I’m feeling bad about myself, right? And that’s coming out as aggression. It’s coming out as disappointment, it’s coming out as whatever negative emotion that is. But you know, I’m not a saint, and I’m not able to do that all the time. Sometimes you’re in that frame of mind where you can’t get objective about the root cause. So I love what you’re saying here, that even when we’re in, you know, a lot of people call it the shame spiral. But if we can catch ourselves somehow and be able to have that objectivity to say what’s actually really going on for me, what do you find works well to help someone sort of, you know, if there was, like, a magic wand or a magic snap you could do to get someone out of that shame spiral in the moment? What kind of techniques work in

David Bedrick JD, Dipl. PW 14:47

the moment? In the moment, the person needs what I call it, unshaming Witness. Now, what is that? And they may not have that inside, because sometimes I’m just filled with my negative feelings and I don’t they take over, yeah, even though I’ve worked with the. About 35 years, there are moments I don’t have it. I’m don’t know myself in certain spots. So But if a person could get inside or outside, or even a I look at James Baldwin picture a dead author or a tree or a spirit or a goddess or a friend or something inside them, if a person can ask themselves, whatever I’m feeling and wrestling with. What’s it like in my body? That means, stop the cursive, the thoughts, the patterns that what should I do? What should I do? What’s it feel like in my body, even for four minutes when my stomach is tense, in my energy, and if you could move a little bit with that energy, let your arms swing. Curl up. You leave the ideas about what you did and didn’t do wrong and what’s wrong with you, and you enter what I call like a pure experience. This is what’s going on for me. I just want to curl up and hide. Go ahead, curl up and hide. A minute of that helps, because you’re outside of shames idea. You’re just having your own experience that’s really deep and not easy. It’s not easy for people only because we don’t do it. It’s not hard. It’s just that, right? We’re out in practice, yeah? When I’m up and I’m upset about something, I should just go feel in my body, I’m thinking, I’m trying to figure myself out for six hours. You know? Yeah, yeah. Doesn’t help. The other thing that many people need, but not all, is if there is some kind of inner criticism going on, oh, I really screwed up. I can’t believe the way I did it, that with that podcast. Oh, why didn’t you do that? That’s like a bunch of right? Somebody’s beating me up. You could say, right? I’m not just thinking I could have done that better. I’m thinking, Oh, I didn’t do this. I didn’t do that. I should have done this. How come I didn’t do this? I don’t look look in the mirror. I don’t like this about myself. If that kind of criticism is going on, if a person can say those criticisms out loud as if they are the critical person, they would really screwed up. What are you doing? This was not the right shirt to wear. I just had noticed my eyes were seen it. This is not the right shirt to wear. What is this on video? If you can say it out loud with the energy of it, and you didn’t do this, right? And you should suffer if you can say those things out loud so your own ears can hear it. Writing it down is not sufficient, right? Need to hear like, oh, that’s going on inside of me. Yeah, yeah, you could respond to advocate for yourself, even if that was two minutes and two minutes, really helps people a lot. But isn’t that,

Maria Ross 17:25

you know, we talk about how we talk to ourselves, Is that helpful to say that out loud to ourselves and be the narrative that we’re continuing to listen to

David Bedrick JD, Dipl. PW 17:35

as long as you’re saying it from this place, I’m gonna now say what that critical voice is saying, got it? I’m not saying I’m a screw up. I’m a screw up. I’m a screw up. That would be good. But David, you’re a screwed up. I’m talking as if I’m talking to him. Yeah, they grew up. You did this wrong. And why didn’t you get more sleep last night? You knew you’re going to be tired, yeah, and then I’m going to be like, because something is going to start noticing that figure, that orientation, that Father, that that mother system, that’s mother, that police system, that racial system, that talks to people about how with their beauty that lives inside of me, that awakens people to the level of violence that’s actually happening. And the level of violence is enormous. It’s not minor. It’s not like, why could I add a nicer hair today? It’s much more brutal, you know, listen to those and say those things. So I want to

Maria Ross 18:25

ask you about, you know, kind of thinking about this, also from a professional context and a work context. What do you think is behind the need for some leaders who embrace really dictatorial approaches to leadership? What is it about those people, especially those leaders, and I’ve experienced some of them, where they have a need to shame others. What’s going on there? Like it’s not even about correcting their performance, it’s not about supporting them. It’s something much more intentional, about embarrassing them, shaming them, calling them out relentlessly on an email that’s copied to everyone in the department. That type of behavior, what do you think is behind that need to shame others? Is it shame internal and they’re just trying to direct it externally, like what’s going on there?

David Bedrick JD, Dipl. PW 19:16

It’s a really deep question. I’m just taking a second and feeling because I have ideas, which I’m happy to say, but it’s a deep question. It’s like, it’s part it’s one of the questions of our world, because of the cycles of violence and the denial of the violence. Well, let’s do this to these people, and then it’s justified. I don’t know, justified or not, but whatever, there’s so much denial dismissal. When I said my mother was doing about the level of violence in the world, that makes it difficult to have empathy, regardless of what my position is, about Middle East, about Russia, have some empathy about the level of violence that’s actually happening, right? Coral Reef, or maybe that’s for what’s happening. Bring to the forest, whatever it is, the capacity to have that, to see that. So I don’t have the answer, but I know certain things that are true enough because I see them enough, right? The cycle of vengeance is incredible, in part, because of unprocessed trauma. I’m not saying everything is unprocessed trauma, but if you look through the lens of understanding trauma, it will help you understand what’s happening. So if I’m a person who’s been really hurt by, let’s say my father, just as that example, and there’s no processing that I haven’t processing mean I haven’t felt how painful it is. I haven’t told the story a little bit. I haven’t, maybe found some of the anger I have that I can now use in my life, that I need to publish a book I don’t know anything about, that it’s all inside of me. When a person is traumatized, they get locked into an experience of themselves. The experience is I’m a smaller person, relatively powerless, less less powerful up against bigger forces. There is David. He’s seven, and he’s got a father who’s 200 pounds and angry. I’m a little person relative to that power. When that happens, I am out of touch with the power I have. Now I enter an experience with somebody who criticizes me if I don’t know anything about that, or unprocessed that, David experienced himself as a seven year old with a big power. Not I’m a 60 year, nine year old man who’s published books, who is a lawyer, who’s test students. I’m not only that, I’m not putting it down right. I’m not only that, that little one wants to feel powerful because he doesn’t and he ought to feel more powerful, right? And say, No, people will listen to me. I can cry and it matters. My sensitivity matters. I’m I can do something about that now, that little one in me, if he’s dominant, takes over the scene. I’m not saying he’s been he needs all the help I can give him, right? He might put you in a place where you feel smaller and down, and that is somewhat satisfying. I’m not saying it’s deeply resolution and satisfied, but it’s somewhat satisfying because I feel bigger and I want to feel bigger and I ought to feel bigger, and, yeah, I need to feel bigger. This is not the way to do it, right,

Maria Ross 22:18

but it’s retaliatory. It feels good in the moment to kind of express your power, even if it’s in a negative way. And it’s really interesting, because I’ve been doing this work for several years now, specifically on empathy, but for a long time, was in corporate environments. I have my own business, and I think back to leaders and bosses I had who were not empathetic, who were and I’ve said this before on the show, and I don’t use the term lightly, psychologically abusive, and I wish I knew then what I know now. And I might have gone into their office and been like, are you okay, right? Like, what just happened back there? Yeah. Are you okay? And just to see the reaction, just to see what would happen if you stopped giving them something to push against, yeah, how the response would go?

David Bedrick JD, Dipl. PW 23:10

So many people would get moved by that. And then there’s going to be some percent. I don’t know what the percentage? I don’t have statistics, right, right, right, like 1015, I don’t know. I’m making up numbers. The people thought this is not based on research, but some percent of people will not be satisfied by anything other than I want to feel this way bigger than other people lord it over them for a period of time. And groups do that, will do that. And how do we interrupt that cycle? As a Jewish person. You know, I’ve studied Jewish history, German history. When a country gets crushed, World War One, Germany had such a disempowered, crushing kind of experience, it should be shocking to any psychological minded person that something could rise up that feels really big and powerful. I’m not putting that down. People do that and all over the place, right? So here are the the Nazis are the example. These examples in five me at times. And

Maria Ross 24:07

yeah, sadly, we have lots of examples we could we could point to. Then

David Bedrick JD, Dipl. PW 24:11

something rises up. What’s going to happen with that? How do we bear witness to that? Do we want to crush them again? I want to stop it. That’s for sure. Let’s stop it. That boss, if they can’t wake up, let’s police them. If someone’s going to hurt some child, let’s police child, let’s police them. Let’s block them up. But what does it look like to make a longer term systemic change? How do we look at those things in a way that brings some kind of healing? That stuff has shifted? Now, I’m powerful. You think you’re powerful? Now I want to be the one who’s powerful. That’s good. I want to feel powerful, but the cycle, yeah, is not sustainable. Yeah.

Maria Ross 24:41

So I want to get to, you know, your book The unshaming way. And I know, oh my gosh, wrote a book. Hey, I want to talk a little bit about, I want to talk a little bit about that method. And maybe we don’t, I mean, we don’t have a lot of time left, but I just want to give people the high points, because I want them to check out the book. Mm. But what are some of the foundational pillars of the unshaming way that you can share with us today?

David Bedrick JD, Dipl. PW 25:04

The foundational pillar, given what I’m saying, is inside of people, most people, there’s something I call a shaming witness, that means something happens, and you think, what should I do? What did I do wrong? How do I correct that? I call that pathologizing. I look at myself as having a an illness may be too strong. I’m depressed. How I can go away? I’m angry. Go away. I’m a procrastinator. How do I make my procrastinate? I’m eating too much ice cream. How do I stop eating so much ice cream? Whatever that thing is, we quickly say, How do I not do this? How do I change that experience? That’s the way almost everybody thinks. And for good reason I want to, I don’t sleep as much well as I would like to. I would somebody could help me sleep more. I want to do that. How do I solve it? Sounds great. So, and we live in a world that’s like that. And healing, what people think of as healing, is like that. But what that doesn’t do is say, Oh, you’re depressed. What’s your depression like? Oh, you’re angry. Show me some of your anger on the way you might need that. Oh, you don’t sleep. What do you if I wrote on social media, I don’t sleep a lot, I would get lots of suggestions. Empathy. Oh, David, I’m sorry. I get lots of suggestions. Have you tried this? Have you tried this? Tea? Have you tried Have you exercised more? We

Maria Ross 26:16

go into advice giving mode because we want to take your pain away. And I talk about this, when we talk about empathy hijacking, where someone shares an experience with you and you say, Oh, I know exactly how you feel, because the same thing happened to me. And here’s what I did, and you should do this and this and this, and all of a sudden it’s not about you anymore. It’s about me. I’ve decentered the narrative. And so that sounds like

David Bedrick JD, Dipl. PW 26:39

I love that. Sorry. I’m interrupting my knees. Yeah,

Maria Ross 26:43

no, I mean, sounds very similar, that we almost empathy hijack ourselves at times where we don’t want to let ourselves feel the feeling or deal with the issue, where we instantly jump into problem solving mode, and you’re calling that path pathology, apologizing, apologizing. Thank you. I apologize.

David Bedrick JD, Dipl. PW 27:02

Something’s wrong with me, yeah? Like, what? How do I fix it? Right? That’s so brilliant. I love what you said, empathy, hijack. I never heard that term. That’s what. And then self, with your calling, self, hijacking, empathy hijacking, that’s, I call that shame, yeah, okay, not saying that. I’m not the right word. I’m saying no, I like it language that’s well, let me say this self empathy hijacking is a shaming act, because it this is me from my own experience. It’s not interested in my own experience. So then unshaming would have to say, let’s go back to the example of me being up at night. Elm would say, almost nobody ever what’s it like when you’re up at night? What like is that something very fundamental, like, if you want that empathy, you have to know what your empathize. What’s it like? Are you nervous? Are you enjoying yourself because no one’s because you’re in the dark and no one’s Are you finally get to play? Are you Instagram and just looking for videos that interest you, and you don’t get to do that in day because you’re working really hard? Yeah, going, are you all the pains and traumas coming up that you didn’t get? Like, what’s actually happening there? We don’t know.

Maria Ross 28:08

Yeah, I love I want to give all my listeners a little an invitation, a little thought experiment around this, in that the next time someone’s sharing something like this, whether they’re expressing a problem that they’re having, or an emotion, you know, frustration, anger, fear, shame, stop, take a pause, take a breath and ask them what it’s like, you know, especially in the advice giving mode we’re always in. So someone’s talking about, I don’t feel I feel like I’m losing touch with my child. I feel like they’re distancing themselves with me, instead of jumping into all the assessments of what’s happening, what what’s that like? What does that feel like? What does that look like? So that’s a little thought experiment for everyone that’s listening to us today, just to practice that that’s amazing. What do you find is the reaction to that? Where does that lead? Does that lead to the person then actually processing what’s going on for them because they’re being asked that question,

David Bedrick JD, Dipl. PW 29:03

yeah, they begin to process and find, I’m calling intelligence, something meaningful inside. But here’s the thing that I know, most people don’t know how to answer that question in a deep way, because, not because we’re not psychologically minded and developed, because no one ever said, Oh, you, you’re six years old. You said, Daddy, I have a headache. Oh, is it a pounding headache? Or is it sharp? Or it’s like a pressure on your head? Is it making you dizzy? You want to close your eyes and you’re nauseous? That like, that would be like, more like a migraine. Or is it like piercing in your eye, like no one’s if if people don’t, oh, you’re sad. What’s your sadness like? Oh, is it like this in your body? Are you feeling heavy? Do you want to scream? Like, those are different, right? One sadness is like, one of the moment wants to scream and yell, the other part wants to fall down on the floor, like, and because, in that you could do that with a child, you don’t have to have, like, a psychological degree. Yeah, do that. But. We’re not used to being asked that, so we don’t have that equipment. So most of the time, when I say that, the people I have to slow down, what’s it like? And they still say, Well, you know, it’s anger is bad, and I’m angry. And I’m like, I know. And then where is the anger in your body at the moment? Just, is it in your throat? Is it in your fingers that are curled up underneath you. Put your awareness on that body part and just hang out and feel that, not as a was a word, just entering the body, the soma, somatic experience. I use that term, the Levine he uses that term. What I mean by is the experience of the body takes us out of that pathologizing so many people need to be led into. What’s it like to have a feeling in my body? I don’t know. I have a bunch of words.

Maria Ross 30:51

Yeah, this is the thing you know we talk about again, kind of going back to being a parent. These tools I’ve learned apply to leadership teams as well as parenting, but this idea of as my son, when he was very young, was helping him build his vocabulary of what the emotions were, what the words were, and helping him understand, are you know, are you sad or depressed, or are you angry? Are you bored? Like helping him figure out when he has a feeling, how do I name that feeling and the shades of gray that exist in all of those different feelings that you can have, right? You can not feel good, but is it because you’re sad, you’re angry, you’re frustrated, you’re hopeless, like, what are those things? And it was so important to give him that language. But you know, we’re raising kids in a different time, and when you and I were younger, nobody talked about that. I mean, you just felt what you felt, and no one explained it to you, and you didn’t dissect it, and you just moved on. You know, since you

David Bedrick JD, Dipl. PW 31:49

got sent to a medical doctor, or you got sent to a medical doctor, know what to do.

Maria Ross 31:53

I want to ask this question as we kind of wrap up, which is really, really important one, and it was intriguing one that you had brought up with me, but

David Bedrick JD, Dipl. PW 32:02

level your questions, by the way, and your insights. So thank you. But go ahead. How do we

Maria Ross 32:06

Yeah, how do we unshame conflict? Because, as we know, the workplace teams that are brought together, very diverse teams that are brought together depending on your family. You and I are both New Yorkers. We don’t shy away from conflict. Not everybody is raised that way. So how do we how can we unshame conflict? Because we need a healthy amount of conflict in order to make sure that we’re hearing and getting different perspectives. And conflict doesn’t have to mean anger. Conflict can just mean disagreement. How do we unshame that? Yeah,

David Bedrick JD, Dipl. PW 32:40

unshaming anything means to allow the thing to show itself in a form that people are going to be uncomfortable with, right? I want to show you my depression. I want to show you my anxiety, etc. So what do we have to how do you unchain conflict? You have to create a space. Somebody has to witness it. Maybe it’s me doing it in with my in conflict with you right here, if I can be in conflict and also keep an eye on the two of us. If not, then we need another person. That other person’s job is not to be on a side or advocate for upside it’s to witness the conflict. How do you do that? Then you say, if you and I are in a conflict, and then somebody should say, David, can you hold on a second? What’s happened? What’s coming out of you. Sorry, we’re gonna get to know that. Maria, if you could say the thing that is bothering you upsetting you as strongly as you can. Now, if it’s in your business, that would have to different places are gonna have to be different, yeah, of course you could say all the way, don’t hold it back. Be as direct as you can, as sharp as you can, as clear as you can. David, I know that’s not gonna be pleasant, but we’re gonna get to you. Please bring it out, even if it doesn’t seem only right to you, yeah, bring it out. And then you kind of go, right, yeah. And then kind of go, and then I help them that with that facilitator helps you do it. Is it this? Are you? Would you want to say this? Also, I want to help you feel like I really said something. And then we have to say to David, what would you come out of you? You have a position of sidedness or whatever? Yeah, let’s make sure that comes up. Now that’s not solving the conflict. Now we have two sides, but now at least we know they are we’re laying them bare. Yeah, I’m not just kind of like, poke you afterwards and I hate you after we’re done. And then we have to learn, like, your word empathy. How do I now, if I’m still some level of satisfaction, that what I what’s in me is out somebody heard it. Maybe it’s not you, maybe it was somebody else who’s here. How can I consider your side, not by trying to be nice to you, but have a little bit of that in me? Can I can I see why someone would even think that around me feel that way? If I can get some connection with a little empathy? Yeah, and you could they. That would be great, but both of those come in. What do you think?

Maria Ross 35:02

Yeah, this reminds me of and I’ll put a link in the show notes. MY CONVERSATION WITH Edwin rush, who ones runs the Center for building a culture of empathy. He’s one of the founding members, and they do a technique called empathy circles that I’ve been trained in that facilitation. He trains people. They train people all over the world for free in this technique, and it’s a really powerful, and I will say painful exercise in active listening, so that people feel heard. And it’s very tightly constructed, and there’s a lot of guardrails around it, but it has enabled him to have these conversations at very, very divisive political rallies in our country over the last few decades. And the goal is not conversion, it’s connection. And so to kind of take this up a level, what I’m hearing you say also is that there doesn’t need to be shame and conflict. It’s just how we’re dealing with the conflict and how we’re navigating our way through the conflict that is making us feel so bad about it. Maybe is that kind of what I hear you saying? I

David Bedrick JD, Dipl. PW 36:01

think it’s exactly true. Okay, we need people who can hold strong things, right? I was involved in a helping facilitate a conflict between Israelis and Palestinians. So somebody has to be able to hold how violent I feel how much I want to, like, smash you because of what I’ve gone through. If we try to tamp that down, we should expect it to blow up when I’m not there. But we also don’t want to, but we also want to say, go ahead, kill somebody. I’m not put the gun away. Use your voice anyway. So that holding the heavy conflict is a big deal. I see you’re giving me a little signal of, like, wrapping up and I’m enjoying our conversation. No,

Maria Ross 36:42

I really am, too. And I think these are really important points and that we have to be we have to be cognizant of shame and the role that it plays and how it impacts our ability to connect with each other and to connect, I guess, to connect with ourselves too, both, right, right? Well, we could talk way longer. I know maybe we’ll have you back on have a part two, but so I want to make sure everyone knows about the book The unshaming way. We’re going to put a link to it in the show notes. We’ll have all your links in the show notes. But for anyone who might be on the go right now, can you share the best place that they can find out more about you and your work?

David Bedrick JD, Dipl. PW 37:19

Yeah, Instagram, I have a lot of material there. That’s no cost that you can find there. It’s under David, and my last name is Bedrick, B, E, D, R, I, C, K, David, like bedrock with an i, David, better can if you search Instagram, you would find me. And yeah, we’ll have

Maria Ross 37:37

those links as well in the show notes, so folks can connect with you. David. Thank you so much. Like there were so many insights in this conversation and just different ways to look at this, this was a very timely conversation, I think, for all of us and for not only for our workplaces and ourselves, but for our culture as well. So thank you for the work that you’re doing. We appreciate you

David Bedrick JD, Dipl. PW 37:56

so welcome. Thanks for inviting me and asking me such good questions and and

Maria Ross 38:00

thank you everyone for listening to another episode of the empathy edge podcast. If you like what you heard, you know what to do. Please rate, review and share with a colleague or a friend, and until next time, please remember that cash flow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be kind For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy. Visit the empathy edge.com there you can listen to past episodes, access show notes and free resources. Book me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes, insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slice. Maria, never forget, empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place.

Cash flow, creativity, and compassion are not mutually exclusive™

Pam Fox Rollin: How to Grow Your Group Into a Team

Truthbomb: A collection of people working in the same department, function, or even office are not necessarily a team. And if you want high performance, you need to know the difference.

Today, Pam Fox Rollin shares the important difference between groups and teams – if you don’t understand this, you may be consistently beating your head against a wall! – and the factors that help you turn your collection of people into a truly high-performing team. We talk about how empathy drives team performance and the transformation she has seen when leaders learn to bring empathy to their work. Pam introduces the concept of Conversations for Relationship and why understanding that those exist, even when you can’t hear them, impacts performance. eWe discuss the intersection of teams and communities, and how to build a “team brand” that helps you succeed within your organization. Finally, Pam shares real-life examples from her clients on how to develop empathy and use it wisely while avoiding the pitfalls.

To access the episode transcript, please scroll down below.

Key Takeaways:

There are four essential conversations teams must have: Conversation for Possibility, Conversation for Decision, Conversation for Action, and Conversation for Relationship.
If there is low trust, there will be slow change. If you want your organization to change faster, you must build that trust.
Take a stand, put a stake in the ground, and give people accurate information about what you’re about and what your purpose is.

“They needed something more, and that something more is fundamentally two things: one, a shared promise, and two…a commitment to coordinate to fulfill that promise.” — Pam Fox Rollin

Episode References:

Right to Be: https://righttobe.org/
The Empathy Edge podcast: Carrie Melissa Jones: Building Successful Communities

From Our Partner:

Go to sparkeffect.com/edge now and download your complimentary Professional and Organizational Alignment Review today.

About Pam Fox Rollin, Executive Team Coach, and Co-Author, Growing Groups Into Teams

Pam Fox Rollin coaches senior executives and C-suite teams in Silicon Valley and globally. Pam guides tech, biotech, and healthcare organizations to succeed in strategic transformation, executive development, and culture initiatives. With her Altus Growth Partners team, she is co-author of the new book Growing Groups into Teams. Her MBA is from Stanford University’s Graduate School of Business, where she later served as a Guest Fellow in Leadership and Master Coach. Pam is known as an impactful speaker and valuable thought partner to leaders navigating complex change.

Connect with Pam:

Altus Growth Partners: altusgrowth.com

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/pamfoxrollin

Book: Growing Groups into Teams: Real-Life Stories of People Who Get Results and Thrive Together: growinggroupsintoteams.com

Connect with Maria:

Get Maria’s books on empathy: Red-Slice.com/books

Learn more about Maria’s work: Red-Slice.com

Hire Maria to speak: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross

Take the LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy

LinkedIn: Maria Ross

Instagram: @redslicemaria

Facebook: Red Slice

Threads: @redslicemaria

FULL TRANSCRIPT:

Pam Fox Rollin 02:32

have you today. Likewise, I’m so happy to be here, Maria,

Maria Ross 02:35

it’s so good to have you here, and I am so excited for folks to check out the book, growing groups into teams. There were several aha moments for me in the book, and we’re gonna get to those in a second. But you know, in your work as an executive team coach, as an author and as a speaker, can you tell us a little bit about your story and how you got into this work and why you’re so passionate about empowering leaders. So I’ve been fascinated,

Pam Fox Rollin 03:01

I mean, ever since I was a little kid, how organizations run, and especially whether the people there, like, you know, growing up at the pizza restaurant and the bank, why they looked really unhappy in some places and looked really happy in some places, why policies make sense. And then I would try to figure out, like, Is this place making any money? And the people are working there, like, are they doing okay? And so the social science side of business is always really, really appealed to me. Yeah, I got to write the organization studies major at UC Davis, and then go get an MBA. And I just love to be where leaders are thinking about, how do I make great strategic decisions, and do it work with the organization in a way that has everyone able to make good on the strategy and, yeah, to thrive while

Maria Ross 04:00

they’re doing it. Yeah, I love that. It’s so funny. How many of my guests their story often starts with as a little kid, I was always curious about x. I love this because, you know, there’s people that excel at the actual work and the actual industry, and then there’s people like us that can’t commit to one industry or one type of thing, but we’re just fascinated with how leaders lead and how, for me also, it’s also how, how brands and leaders connect with their employees or connect with their customers and clients. I kind of don’t care what business they’re in, but it’s the actual, the business of the business that I’m kind of fascinated by. So I love to hear that. And as your book, very pointedly, talks about, is doing and leading are different things, and we’ve fallen into this thing where we promote the people who’ve been doing the work the best, rather than the people that can do the work of leading. So I would like to start us off with the big aha I had with the book, which was. There’s a difference between a group or a department or a function and a team. Can you explain to us the difference? Absolutely, and you’re not the only one who is like, wait a minute, two by four to the head. I’ve been noticing this for a long time, but I didn’t have the words to create the difference. So a group are people who are connected in some way, and often in the workplace, because they all report to the same

Pam Fox Rollin 05:26

quote boss, or maybe, as you say, a function. And often they’ll call themselves the team, and that doesn’t make them a team at all. Yeah, yeah. I worked with one executive team that series B, amazing startup. They’re doing so well. They’re growing like crazy, wonderful people. And they said, you know, we haven’t really properly operated as an executive team. We’ve now got some executives and let’s operate as a team. And their act of declaring the team was creating a Monday meeting and opening a Google Doc, and they’re like, Okay, we’re a team now we have a Google Doc that a few months in, what they realized is they needed something more, and those something more are fundamentally two things, one, a shared promise, active making a promise together that creates the team. I love that so the team exists to fulfill something. If they succeed and fulfill it, then they say, Huh, what’s our next challenge? Or are we no longer a team? And we go off and we do other things. The second thing it takes is a commitment to coordinate, well, to fulfill that promise. If you don’t have that, then you’re sort of, you’re a bunch of people who all have the same dream, yeah, maybe you’re a bunch of contractors who kind of operate in a hub and spoke way with the central leader person. But you’re not a team. You’re a group of disconnected people in your silos because you’re not coordinating as you need to fulfill

Maria Ross 07:15

I love that, and you’re making me think back to a prior guest I have. I’ll put a link in the show notes. Carrie Melissa Jones, she is a community and online community expert. She wrote a book called building brand communities, and in her interview, we talked a lot about that concept of people think just bringing their users together makes it a community, or just putting everybody on a group on social media makes them a community. But to your point, I think they have like seven checkpoints of what makes it an actual community. And one of them, which I never thought about before, but it’s kind of linked to your act of creating a promise and commitment to coordination, is they have to have mutual care. There has to be a reason that they actually care about the success of each other. So she consults with a lot of big companies, and they’re trying to turn their user groups into communities, but it doesn’t make them a community to just all be users of the same product, which it sounds like is similar to the premise in the book and to your work, is that just because you’re in all in the same function, reporting with the same boss doesn’t make you same. Yeah,

Pam Fox Rollin 08:19

I’m excited to go listen to that podcast, because one of the things I’m fascinated with is where teams and communities intersect and where they’re actually different. And to me, one of the things that is absolutely fundamental about community is that they commit to be in relationship with each other or be in that care and teams are also in a common care. It is a care to accomplish them. Now often teams are also community. Yes,

Maria Ross 08:53

yeah, if you if you’re lucky, if you have a great team, it feels like a community. And, you know, I’ve talked often on this show about the fact that, you know, when we many of my best friends, I met at work, my I met my husband at work, right like and these are people I’ve had lifelong friendships win with. And it doesn’t mean you have to, you know, we’re both familiar with the work of Shasta Nelson and the business of friendship, and how having a friend at work increases engagement and performance and reduces absenteeism and turnover and all that good stuff. But I guess you know what a great follow up question to that would be is, so what do we do? How do we create that team that has that mutual respect, that mutual promise and that mutual care, and I’m not going to give away the entire book, but what are some of the ways that you’ve seen work, and what are some of the pitfalls that people think they’re building a team, but they’re not, absolutely

Pam Fox Rollin 09:44

so you had said, you know, if by luck, you have that sort of group, and sometimes it happens by luck that you have a group that becomes a team, that becomes a community where you care about each other, but if you don’t want to wait for luck, whatever, so. With the things, right? So this is where your work is just front and center. You bring empathy, because how are you possibly going to build a community that cares about accomplishing a promise and cares about each other without actually being interested in and asking about and observing and looking for, what does each person on the team light up about? Where do they connect with the mission of our organization, with the promise of this team? How are they wired? What makes it a great day for them? And so bringing that kind of noticing and empathy is I love

Maria Ross 10:41

that. What makes it a great day for them. I think just right there, if any of my folks listening can start with asking themselves that question for their team members, I think that would go a long way, because that will drive your decisions, and that will drive your actions on where to go next to make it a place where they feel like they belong and that they’re contributing to the common cause, right? You talk about conversations for relationship.

Pam Fox Rollin 11:06

Can you tell us what those are, and how do they show up at work? Yeah, so we see that there are four absolutely essential kinds of conversations that teams must have. One is a conversation for possibility. And I don’t mean once, I mean many times along the way. What could we do? How could this work? Second is a conversation for decision. Third is the conversation for action. Now you and I have probably both seen lots of teams that rush into action before they’ve had decisions or even considered all the possibility, right? Like you look around and they’ve all scattered to go act and it’s like, did we decision

Maria Ross 11:44

together? What are we doing again? Yeah, exactly. Then

Pam Fox Rollin 11:47

we say, underneath all that, is a conversation for relationship, even if it’s not happening out loud, there is always a conversation going, am I respected here? Do people value what I bring to the team. Do they value who I am as a person? Will people have my back and some grace? You and I have talked about grace with each other as we navigate, you know, being moms and sandwich generation and writers and consultants and singers and all of that, that sometimes we have to have grace with ourselves and each other. So Will somebody on this team have grace with me? And one of the most powerful things that we’ve seen in turning teams around is to point out often to the leaders in the organization that conversation relationship is always happening. You just don’t know what they’re saying, and you’re not in the conversation, so you can’t influence it. Yeah, and then people really get, Oh, right. They’re human. They’re going to be asking, do I matter here? They’re going to be asking all of those questions. And so what if I actually made the time to go for a walk with them, to have coffee over zoom or in person to show that I’ve got some grace while I keep standards. And here’s where your book on empathy dilemma really, really shines. Maria is it’s not a choice between standards and compassion. Both reach. I love it. Are those

Maria Ross 13:20

conversations happening in our own heads? Is that the point?

Pam Fox Rollin 13:24

Often they do, and the conversations for relationship, because we have this mythology that we can’t maybe be humans at work, they are the ones that go most inward. Now, sometimes conversations for decisions also happen in people’s head. People decide things, and we asked, well, when was that decided? I don’t know. I just I decided, I decided, and then I might have forgotten to tell the rest of the team. Oh, yeah, no surprise. We’re rather misaligned right now. So all of these things happen in our heads. Conversations for possibilities happen in our head too. We think through what could we do? I remember one conversation that just really grabbed me, and I wrote about it in the growing groups into teams, in the chapter on executive teams and working with this the top team of a public company, and they had so few conversations with each other, I mean, other than polite and superficial and all of that, and Sometimes not polite, but definitely not deep about their relationships, that they didn’t know that each other wanted exactly the same thing that they wanted. Oh, my goodness, and it took elevating one of them to CEO. I interviewed all the members of the team and came back and said, I think you guys are going to be amazed, but you all said these seven things, and they’re like, No

Maria Ross 14:46

way. Well, we’re so busy running and we’re so busy in the busyness that we don’t take time to work on the business, right? And this is true when I’ve done brand workshops the past, and I what I do with my teams when I do brand engagements is. And brand story engagements is I have each of the folks participating in the workshop fill out a pre work questionnaire, and they’re not allowed to help each other. They’re not allowed to see each other, because I want to see where each of them are coming from, because I have a cross functional team, not just marketing. And it’s so interesting to me where it’s like, okay, all of you described the business you’re in as a company in a different way. Most of you disagreed on who your ideal customer is. They seem like duh decisions that we should have been all talking about, but we’re so busy running at 100 miles an hour that we actually didn’t stop to see if we were aligned. That’s half my value right there, before I’ve even delivered anything just to get them to talk about it in a room, and have, you know, four to six hours where they’re forced to actually have those conversations with each other.

Pam Fox Rollin 15:49

And I love that you put, you know, brand and leadership and strategy together. And for teams, you know your brand is your promise. What is your team’s promise? What are you going to deliver to your organization or your customer, and how are you going to do it? And I love when teams are thoughtful about their brand in the organization. We need the team that we’re masters at connecting other teams in the organization with each other, which is great, because we used to have to do all the stuff because they weren’t talking to each other. But what if we could get them actually connected with each other? Yeah, and so I’ve seen teams have some really distinctive brands that made a difference. There was an organization I worked with where I love these people, but they were sort of the key brains inside this organization, they all had PhDs. They were from different countries. They had different backgrounds, absolutely brilliant humans. I sometimes call them the seven grumpy PhDs, and one of them said nothing in my background has ever prepared me to coordinate with other people. And we were on it, and it just a 15% 20% change in their willingness to coordinate with each other. And think about, how do we want the rest of the organization to understand us? Do we want them to understand us as seven disconnected individuals who just argue with each other and can’t give us a clear answer. Do we want them to understand us as well? Seven amazing individuals who have great backgrounds that combine to form a solution for the organization that’s amazing.

Maria Ross 17:33

So you know what in your experience? And you know, please feel free to share any stories, what becomes possible when the executive leaders that you work with learn to bring empathy to their work. Is that where the team, quote, unquote, starts, or how have you seen it manifest? I have seen

Pam Fox Rollin 17:53

teams start just as the team, even though the executive team has no concept of team. In fact, sometimes they’re the last ones to get on board, because, as you say, they’re cross functional. They’re used to leading in their feed stems, and then they discovered that they’re each playing very, very different games that do not add up to running the organization. For sure, if we waited for all the executive teams to get on board, we might not have amazing teams in the organization, which is why I work mostly with executive teams. So this is going to so shortcut things for your organization. So I think there’s a couple of benefits. One is the rest of the organization gets to see how to function as a team. It’s a model, yeah, and they learn it really fast when their leaders are practicing that and saying, You know what? That impacts, what finance does. Let me just co coordinate with the CFO. I’ll get right back to you. And then they do. It wasn’t some they go have a conversation and say, yep, we’re totally aligned on this. We can move forward. And that’s all. What many people deeper in an organization want is that they can move forward knowing that they’re not wasting their time if they work really hard on something, it’s something that the organization can actually use and move forward. So that’s part of the other thing, and this has never been more important, is the organization can change. You know, we have a saying in organizational development, low trust, slow change. So you want your organization change faster right now? Everybody does. You’ve got to build that trust. And one of the things that that rests on is, and you might have run into the trust chapter in the book, where we lay out a whole bunch of factors that intrude, that add up to trust. One of those things is intentions. Do I understand why you’re here? What it is you’re intending to accomplish, and also your motivations for doing that? Is it because you want to build a legacy in this industry? Is it because you love broken things? Is it because. Because you think we can make so much money doing this? Is it because you think that we are going to make customers so delighted they will never go anywhere else? Right? It can be many things, but if I don’t know what you’re about and why you’re here and what you’re motivated by, if I can’t trust that, it’s going to be really hard for me to say yes to your change initiative, which is inevitably going to make me what change does is takes competent people and makes them incompetent, and then keep cycling through that cycle, because I used to be great at what we did, and now we’re doing something different, and I have to figure it out. Figure out who to talk to get in the groove of how to do it. And so I need to know what’s important to you. And also I need to know that you respect your relationship with me, that we’re in a respectful relationship. Because there are times I’m going to look super awkward. There are times I’m going to do something that it turns out it didn’t work. And I don’t know how we ever create change, do new things and expect it to be perfect. Life isn’t like that. So if we want people to change rapidly, willingly, with a spirit of experimentation, then we need to make sure that the leaders have some empathy and are building trust with folks and people will know have their back. You will come have a conversation that says it looks like that thing isn’t working out. What shall we do now? And how do we make sure that you are, you know, resourced in the best way we can, which may be suboptimal, but in the best way we can to move this forward. Well, it’s just so funny,

Maria Ross 21:52

because I’ve never thought of it that way. And this is why I love hosting a podcast, because my guests are constantly like, oh, truth bombs. We know this in our personal lives, right? You meet a stranger in the park and they say, come here. I want to show you something. You want to know what their intention is, what their motivation is, and who this person is, or you’re not taking a step in that direction Exactly. So why would we think it’s any different when we’re in a workplace is, do we think it’s different because we allegedly know each other, quote, unquote, but if there’s no empathy, then I don’t feel like you really know me, and you don’t feel like I really know you, because neither of us are trying to see each other’s point of view. So it’s another one of those, like schoolyard lessons that applies to the workplace, other than be respectful, be kind, be empathetic and collaborative. It’s you cannot trust someone to take a step or unless they’ve earned that trust. And to your point, I think that is something that we say all the time, but what does that mean? You’re giving us something very actionable, which is communicate and be clear about your intentions and your motivations, be vulnerable and let them know so they can trust you and be willing to take that step. And there’s so many leaders that just think they’re going to take that step, because I’m going to tell them they have to take that step. And some might, you might get some compliance, but it’s short term engagement, and really, how much are they going to adopt the change, and how quickly will they adopt the change with that mindset? However, if you can encourage them to trust you and willingly take that step forward on their own accord, so that’s where I’m really seeing the empathy coming in. Because it’s not only about the clarity pillar of my book, The Empathy dilemma, but it’s also this idea of I need to understand you and your fears and your values so that I can frame this in the right way to make you want to take a step

Pam Fox Rollin 23:55

towards the change. And as you point out in your books, it goes both ways. It’s multi directional, yes, so I need to know, if I’m working for you, that you understand what I’m about and where I connect with the promise that we’re making, and I need to understand what you’re about. And what’s fascinated me as I’ve been doing this for 25 years, what’s fascinated me is that there’s not, like, one right answer or a there’s a few wrong answers, wrong answers. I’m here to screw you all over, sell the company and not fulfill my promises on the back end, right? That’s, I’ve seen it, yeah, wrong answer,

Maria Ross 24:36

yeah. And I’m willing to run over any of you to get there, any

Pam Fox Rollin 24:39

of you to get there. But I, you know, have worked with some leaders who are unapologetically Queen operated, and they’re just like, we are here to maximize my bonus, and along the way, I’m going to make sure we maximize your bonus too. So if you’re ever wondering why I made a certain decision, think what will be my. A bonus at the end of the year. And people follow this person. It’s not like, right? Has to be some, you know, soft,

Maria Ross 25:08

noble, yeah, exactly. This is the thing. It’s just like, brand, take a stand, put a stake in the ground and say, This is what we’re about. You’re either on board or you’re not, but at least you give people the accurate information to make a decision. I have said that even about companies that have done some really awful things with their employees, with their structures, but I’ve always said, well, at least now you know what you’re getting into. They have taken a stand on this. This is who they are. Now you have agency to decide if you are going to sign on for that or if you’re going to not. And so, you know, and for some people, that might resonate for them and say, Yes, I want that too. Yeah, it doesn’t have to be noble. It doesn’t have to be, you know, solving world problems. Hopefully it is. Hopefully businesses are doing something in some way, shape or form. But to your point, it’s about honesty, and it’s about very clearly laying that out. Where do you see, I know what I talk about on this show all the time and in my books, but where do you see with the leaders you work with empathy go wrong or get misused as people lead? What have you seen?

Pam Fox Rollin 26:17

Yeah, mostly the number one ways that gets misused is it doesn’t get turned

Maria Ross 26:23

on at all. It doesn’t get used, right? It

Pam Fox Rollin 26:26

doesn’t get used and it’s not everyone. I mean, I know the best CEOs I’ve worked with are highly empathetic, and everybody in their organization thinks we got the lucky we got the empathetic CEO. But then I’m like, Well, yeah, over there, there’s one too. Over there, there’s one too, but then sometimes notably, there’s not right. The second thing is, people think they’re being empathetic. So I was with a team yesterday in another state, a team of leaders I’ve been working with for a year, and they’re taking on a bunch of change. And we know that design is how you start change, and design starts with that. So our first question is, Who are you designing for? And also, can you design with them, rather than just for them, right? And say what would like, what’s important to them about this? And so the got, you know, one of the leaders was happy to speak up about this, and he said, Well, this this, and this is, is important. And I suppose that important too. Like, yeah, these folks. And I didn’t even have to say there was somebody else in the room who said, actually, what’s important to you? I’m a little closer to these people we’re designing for. And here’s what I think they say. And people were like, Wow, that’s good. That’s really interesting. I never have thought of that. They’re being empathetic, yeah, but not but that’s fine. I have seen this fellow make so many wonderful advancements over the last year that I’m sure he’s going to get there on this too. And this was probably a pretty big wake up call. So sometimes people think they’re being empathetic. They’re not. Then, well, they’re

Maria Ross 28:07

making assumptions, yeah, they’re that’s where I see that’s always Yeah, that’s always the caveat with cognitive empathy, because cognitive empathy is imagining what it might be like for someone else, which is a useful starting point, but you have to vet that, because you’re actually envisioning it from your own experience and your own bias. So you don’t actually know unless you ask.

Pam Fox Rollin 28:29

There was a keynote that I used to give maybe 10 years ago or so, and I was talking about the difference in cognitive empathy, and I found a picture of engineer from I think it was Ford, but I might have the auto company wrong, wearing one of those pregnancy bellies, like those foam bellies, yeah, and seeing that he could fit into the car, and he had a big thumbs up. And I’m thinking, this does not mean he knows what it feels like to be pregnant. Like he’s crying. He’s trying, yeah, I appreciate the effort.

Maria Ross 29:03

But yeah, I’m like, that’s a step beyond. I actually, you know, we need to applaud that, yeah,

Pam Fox Rollin 29:08

but he still might want to connect with actual pregnant people, right when we’re going into the car and seeing if they can reach all the stuff

Maria Ross 29:15

completely, yeah, that, you know, that’s just like, another example of when we talk about, what’s finally getting talked about is that so much of medical research has been done on men and on one or two specific groups of people, and then we expect those medications and those treatments to work on everybody, but we really need to be more inclusive in the medical research area so that we actually understand what the impact is For this group of people versus that group of people could be very, very different. So it kind of reminds me of that, of like, well, we had a proxy for that group of the guy with the pregnancy belly on, which is actually really cute. I’m sorry, that’s actually really funny,

Pam Fox Rollin 29:54

yeah, but I’m thinking, Are there any actual women or

Maria Ross 29:59

any anybody. Spouses, who might be pregnant, who might be willing to just come in and sit in the prototype and just tell us what they think. Yeah, have you ever, you know, just this is a total tangent, but, you know, that’s the thing. I always think when I use a product, or I’m, I’m the recipient of a service, and I and something goes really wrong, and I’m like, did anyone test this? Like, did anyone actually do any consumer testing or user testing on what this experience was going to be like? Because I can’t imagine somebody would do this to somebody else. I find myself thinking that all the time. I don’t know if that’s my my marketing brain or whatever. Well,

Pam Fox Rollin 30:35

and then healthcare two, and you and I do a lot of thinking about healthcare, about half my client base. Oh my gosh, yes, health systems and biotech, yes. And the difference between and I see this a lot now that my mom is 87 she’s doing pretty well, but she says braille, and the things she’s expected to be able to open, even the doors to get into the clinic, are not ones that, yeah,

Maria Ross 31:01

yeah, they’re too heavy. I think about that now, like, in my 50s, I’m like, I can’t even read. I give it to my 10 and a half year old son to read a medicine bottle because I can’t read the directions on it, right? I’m like, What am I going to do when I’m 80?

Pam Fox Rollin 31:12

Like, who put this on here? That is my biggest motivation, yeah, to lift weights and work out.

Maria Ross 31:19

I know Me too. Me too. Yeah, completely. I know we went on a little tangent there, but it’s so true. It’s about, ultimately, it’s about seeing things from other people’s perspective, and not just your users and your customers, but your employees as well, so and your leaders. So I you know, obviously my work is all about helping leaders strengthen their empathy, but I want to get your perspective in the trenches working with executives. What are a few tips or examples you can give us of things that you’ve done with your clients to help them tap into that empathy and to strengthen that muscle?

Pam Fox Rollin 31:52

Yeah. So quite some years ago, I did research with tune of Sharon, Richmond. You might she’s part of our community here. Anyway. She’s been in our Silicon Valley kind of consulting community for a while, and we’ve joined up together with Altus and I did research on 265 leaders to find out how they developed their emotional intelligence. And these were all leaders who knew their Myers, Briggs, and then we correlated them up, and it was hilarious. And the point I’m getting to is not everybody develops empathy in the same way. So just as we’re asking leaders to understand the individuals on their team, when I support an exec team, I want to understand them as individuals. And for some of them, what they really want is to look watch people who are very effective. Sometimes I hook them up with somebody you know, in a different function, a level or two below, who is a rock star at leading empathy in the way that they need to learn and say, could they go to your meetings? Could they like I, what are they? What are they doing? Yeah, what are they doing? Because some people learn really well from watching others. Other people love to learn from feedback, where they say to your team, you know, I’m aiming to get better at asking enough questions so I understand instead of always deciding things for my frame of reference. So if I forget to do that, will you help me? Will you give me some feedback on how I’m doing? Because I know I will be better if I get your perspectives. I hired a smart team. I want to hear what you say, and I just forget that I need to ask I love that other people. It’s from one on one coaching other people. It’s from sometimes even watching movies or reading, yes, novels, explore with your imagination, from the empathy edge book that was one of my tips to help leaders strengthen their empathy. It’s about reading and consuming art and media and documentaries and movies about people who are not like you, and being able to flex that muscle of wondering what things might be like for them, but also seeing a different life experience, right? Yeah, I love that. So that’s worked for all your folks. Too. Different people want different things, and so it’s helpful to have we find a menu of ways that they can grow themselves. And there’s also, as you talk about different there’s different sorts of things you can do. One way to express empathy is to learn a formal design process. Another way to express empathy is just to go to a walk with someone or say, Hey, how you doing? And really mean it, yeah. And really listen to the answer, yeah. Really listen. So we ask everybody to set their own goals for the leadership edges that they’re working and then come up with some individual things that they can do. And then we’re. Things that we set as a team. So there’s a process we often do. We’ve done with our team, and we often do with other leadership teams, where we look at 25 factors that really make a difference in teams and say, How are we doing on these and which ones we want to come up with? Just a few, which ones that, if we actually work it hard, focus on it together, would really make a difference for the team. What are

Maria Ross 35:28

some of those factors that we need to look at as teams to create teams? Yeah,

Pam Fox Rollin 35:33

one that’s so powerful in the research and so experientially powerful too, is how well do we represent the views of people who aren’t present? If I can trust the CTO, I’m the Chief Product Officer, the CTO is at the meeting. Are they going to fairly represent my views? Will they say something like, you know, here’s what I see. I just want to be open that Pam, the chief product officer, mentioned to me her concern about this and this, and I think that’s a fair concern to address, is that the kind of relationship that we have and so that requires listening to people. It requires valuing their perspective, and it requires really living into that second element of being a team, I will collaborate well to produce the

Maria Ross 36:31

problem. Yeah, what are a few other of those factors? Those are fascinating.

Pam Fox Rollin 36:36

So one is we communicate in a coordinated way to drive clarity across the organization. More teams need that. That’s a frequent low one. Yeah, another one is we admit and learn from weaknesses and mistakes. Oh, that gets

Maria Ross 36:53

all to self awareness and just understanding how we show up and being honest with ourselves, yeah, about how we show up so that we can improve, we can have a growth mindset around it. Yeah, I love that. All right, give us one more. Oh,

Pam Fox Rollin 37:08

we go directly to the person when we’ve got

Maria Ross 37:11

we got an issue. Yeah, it’s so frequent, and we spend a lot of time talking about people and less time talking to them. And this happens not just with teams that have a bit of a hard edge. This happens with the nicest Midwest team, and they think that I just I can’t say it directly the person. So what they learn is they can say it directly to the person. Yeah, and there is an enormous amount of respect that I’m showing you by saying I’m concerned that this behavior I’m seeing can get in the way of you fulfilling the potential that you have, and so I don’t claim that I’m right, but I just I’m seeing something, and I would love to share it, yeah, well, and that’s empathetic, that’s actually helping somebody be their best and giving them the opportunity to improve. Yeah, and you know what we often do, and this is, you know, I’m sure you’ve met these leaders who, in the name of empathy, delay those conversations or delay those decisions because they don’t want to hurt anyone’s feelings, right? But it ends up not only being detrimental to that employee or that co worker, but it’s detrimental to the whole team, because the whole team is suffering because of that person’s actions, whether those actions are subconscious or conscious. And so it’s actually not empathetic to avoid and I, you know, I hate the way we talk about it in terms of we always use the term conflict avoidant, but it doesn’t mean you’re going to have a conflict just because you’re going to share feedback with somebody, why do we assume it’s automatically going to be a conflict when we share feedback, we can do it in a way, and even those of us I have to share, even those of us who kind of can come across a certain way, that’s always the hesitancy is like, well, they’re going to be offended. They’re going to get upset with me. It’s going to sound really harsh. I you know, this is where the self awareness comes in. I know that. You know, I’m originally from the East Coast. I’m an Italian like I know sometimes even when I’m being direct, even if I’m trying to say it in my kindest voice, it can sound very harsh. And so what I’ve learned is, if I am going to bring something to someone’s attention, I try to be very transparent about that, about like, hey, this might sound harsh, just because the way that I talk and please know it’s actually done with love and it’s done with kindness and collaboration. But I know when my words come out of my mouth, it might sound a little off to you, and I try to address it up front so that, or even after, if I say, and I’m like, and I know that sounds really harsh, I’m just really direct sometimes, so I apologize if that sounds really harsh. I don’t mean it to be right. So, you know, we can be this is that’s another example of vulnerability, other than you know, vulnerability means we just lose it. Well, we. Spread all our emotions on the floor. We can be vulnerable by just admitting we understand how we come across, yes, and

Pam Fox Rollin 40:06

if we lose it, we can come back and say, I was such a mess an hour ago. I imagine that was really unpleasant and hard to hear, and I’m unskillful of me. I’m going to learn to do better. Yeah. None of these things you, I mean, to a point, are fatal. It’s just that when we don’t have those conversations, I’m sure you and your clients think a lot about, how do we build cultures of safety where people feel like, like they can do that basic okay to have that kind of conversation? Yeah, yeah,

Maria Ross 40:39

and feel it’s okay, you know, what are you modeling as a leader for your team? About making mistakes, about owning failures, about apologizing, about you know? So how are you modeling the missteps you make in a way so your team knows it’s safe to make some missteps and be able to repair them?

Pam Fox Rollin 41:00

Yeah, one of my mentors a long time ago said there are two ways to delight your client, this was when I was in strategy consulting, or two times to delight your client before you screw up and after you screw up. I love that. That’s so great. Well, as we wrap up, I mean, we could probably talk for another three hours here. What’s sort of a final gem you want to share with us? That’s, again, we don’t want to give away all the ahas from the book, but what’s a great gem or insight you can share with us about how you go from taking a group and to making them a team? What can leaders take away? Yeah, so I would just start with the team promise Maria, because so many groups are unclear on what it is they are aiming to accomplish. And that doesn’t mean that you actually know all the details of what it is you’re going to deliver, but you’re pointed enough in the same direction that you can all log on every morning and go, yeah, that yes is the cool thing that we are aiming to accomplish. I love

Maria Ross 42:03

this because this goes beyond the company’s mission and the company’s purpose. Your team needs to have a micro culture of a mission and purpose that fits in to that larger mission and purpose. And so, you know, we might know that our larger purpose is x, but our particular team is responsible for why, and

Pam Fox Rollin 42:23

we see that team promise makes more difference to performance than their connection with the overall mission. Yes, we want to have that that is, yeah, it’s too big. It’s too grand, but yeah, I know our team is designing our support engineering function, and six months from now, we are going to have a support engineering function, and we didn’t have it before. Yes, I

Maria Ross 42:47

did a lot of that work when I worked in management consulting, of like, putting in an organization, putting in a function within the organization that didn’t exist before. Yeah. So how do you integrate that? How do you help people understand how they’re supposed to interact with that. This is making me, I know we’re wrapping but this is making me think about a previous job that I had. It had its warts and it had its bright spot, and it’s great opportunities, which was awesome, but the marketing leader, I remember, used to say, our one goal as a marketing team, as a global marketing team is we are here to make sales easier. That’s the team. That is our mission, that is our goal. And if you’re doing something that makes sales harder, you’re not on the same mission. So everything you do has to be designed with that are you answering that question? Is this making sales easier? That’s made by a team promise, exactly, and that’s never left me from that role, as I went into my own, you know, independent consulting. It’s what can you do no matter what aspect of marketing is? It’s event marketing, it’s brand marketing, it’s lead gen, whatever. What is it doing for the ultimate goal of driving sales? And how did

Pam Fox Rollin 43:59

we know we’re succeeding, yeah, and it helps to avoid a lot of red herrings as well. It does, if I may, share one other thing, because it’s personally really meaningful to me. I’ve joined the board of an organization called right to be and what they do is work on creating safety in it started with streets and then online, and then workplaces, and then healthcare settings. Create safety by energizing everyone, by activating everyone. Some call it bystander intervention, but what it really is us noticing that there’s things that we can do that move things forward. So if we see somebody who isn’t being treated as we would want to see treated, but it also, once you know those skills, you can see opportunities. And those are the eyes. And one of the reasons I’m so excited about right to be is those are the eyes that we’re. Cultivating in organizations. Whenever we do culture work, we are saying we want everyone coming in with eyes open other and for what it is we’re aiming to accomplish, rather than I’m just here to do this task, and somebody will tell me if I did it right? And what the next? Yeah, so powerful. Well, we will put a

Maria Ross 45:25

link to that organization for sure in your show notes. I would love to do that, but we’re out of time, so let’s wrap up. We are going to put all your links in the show notes, and we are so grateful to you for being here today, but for folks that are on the go, maybe exercising while they’re listening to us. Where’s the one good place that they can connect with you or find out more about your work.

Pam Fox Rollin 45:44

LinkedIn. I am the only Pam Bucha Rollin, R, O, L, L, I N on LinkedIn, and I would be so glad to connect with any listeners.

Maria Ross 45:55

I love it, and I always do my PSA for LinkedIn is put a note that you heard her on the podcast, don’t just reach out and connect. Actually personalize your note. Thank you so much. Pam, I’m so glad this was well worth waiting for to have you on the show, and I look forward to hearing more. I hope folks will check out the book Growing groups into teams, real life stories of people who get results and thrive

Pam Fox Rollin 46:19

together. Thank you again for being here such a pleasure. Thank you Maria and thank you

Maria Ross 46:25

everyone for listening to another episode of the empathy edge podcast. If you like what you heard, you know what to do, rate, review and share with a friend or a colleague. And until next time, please remember that cash flow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be kind. For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy. Visit the empathy edge.com there you can listen to past episodes, access show notes and free resources. Book me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes, insights, news and events, please follow me on Instagram at Red slice Maria, never forget empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place.

Cash flow, creativity, and compassion are not mutually exclusive™

Courage to Advance: Leading Gen Z with Dr. Meisha Rouser

Welcome to Courage to Advance, hosted by Kim Bohr and brought to you by SparkEffect, in partnership with The Empathy Edge.

Tune in to our subseries every 3rd Thursday, right here on The Empathy Edge! Or check us out at CourageToAdvancePodcast.com.

Traditional Management Models Are Failing (And What Actually Works)

What if Gen Z’s approach to work isn’t just different, but better? Join Kim Bohr and Dr. Meisha Rouser as they challenge “kids these days” stereotypes and explore why traditional management is failing this generation.

Discover why questions about pay transparency and work-life boundaries signal evolution, not entitlement. Learn how leaders can adapt by understanding economic realities, setting clear expectations, and transforming feedback approaches.

Dr. Rouser shares practical leadership strategies to create meaningful growth opportunities that retain Gen Z talent while building more adaptive, high-performing teams.

To access the episode transcript, please scroll down below.

Key Takeaways:

Why the “pay your dues” mentality is driving away top talent
How to transform feedback and development approaches for maximum impact
The importance of clear expectations and boundaries
Understanding the economic realities shaping Gen Z workplace needs
Why challenging workplace norms isn’t entitlement but evolution

“This generation isn’t just challenging workplace norms – they’re showing us a better way forward. When they ask ‘why do we work this way?’ they’re not being difficult, they’re pushing us to create workplaces that actually work for everyone.”

– Dr. Meisha Rouser, PCC

About Dr. Meisha Rouser, PCC

Meisha is a recognized expert in organizational development, leadership, and change management with over 20 years of experience. She specializes in cultural transformation, executive coaching, and building high-performing leadership teams. 

As an organizational psychologist, her research on Gen Z in the workplace provides groundbreaking insights for creating productive and meaningful work environments. She skillfully navigates organizational culture to ensure lasting impact and strategic success.

Meisha holds a Ph.D. in Leadership Studies from Gonzaga University, a Master’s in Organizational Development, and an Executive Leadership Certificate from MIT Sloan School of Business. She has worked with clients including HP, FujiFilms, Intel, Jackson Laboratories, and the U.S. Navy.

About SparkEffect

Go to sparkeffect.com/edge now and download your complimentary Professional and Organizational Alignment Review today.

Connect with Dr. Meisha Rouser:

Website: https://meisharouser.com/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meisharouser/

Connect with Kim Bohr and SparkEffect

SparkEffect: sparkeffect.com

Courage to Advance recording and resources:

sparkeffect.com/courage-to-advance-podcast

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/company/sparkeffect

LinkedIn for Kim Bohr: linkedin.com/in/kimbohr

Connect with Maria:

Get Maria’s books on empathy: Red-Slice.com/books

Learn more about Maria’s work: Red-Slice.com

Hire Maria to speak: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross

Take the LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy

LinkedIn: Maria Ross

Instagram: @redslicemaria

Facebook: Red Slice

Threads: @redslicemaria

FULL TRANSCRIPT:

Kim Bohr 01:27

What if Gen Z’s approach to work isn’t just different, but better? What if their insistence on work life, boundaries, and transparent communication is exactly what our organizations need to thrive in this modern era? Welcome everybody. I’m Kim Bohr, president and COO of Spark effect and the host of courage to advance podcast today, I am talking with Dr Misha Rauser, a recognized expert in organizational development, leadership and change management with over 20 years of experience and as an organizational behavioral scientist, her research on Gen Z in the workplace provides groundbreaking insights for creative, productive and meaningful work environments that we all can benefit from. Welcome Misha to the courage to advance podcast.

Dr. Meisha Rouser 02:16

Thank you. It’s a pleasure to be here. I really appreciate this. So

Kim Bohr 02:21

I am so excited. You’re here with us, given your PhD, your expertise in organizational development, leadership, change management, I couldn’t think of a better person to have this conversation about Gen Z in our workplace and what it means for everybody. So you and I did some talking beforehand. We talked about, like, what are some of these? You know, way to to think about Gen Z coming in, and one of the things you and I really, definitely saw was like, this isn’t just one of these, you know, oh, the kids these days, you know, that’s that there’s kind of, there’s just enough phase they’re going through, or it’s really more transformational than that. And I want to really have our audience start off with you talking about how those old paradigms aren’t serving us well. And you know, really some of that generational theory that you’ve really put a lot of work into through your PhD and the studies you’ve done, so please dive in. Yeah. So

Dr. Meisha Rouser 03:14

it’s interesting, because everybody always talks about the new generation. Doesn’t matter. I mean, it could have been 20 years ago, right? And always saying, Oh, well, you know, they’re just being special, or we all had to go through the same thing. Yes, that is true. However, it is interesting that with Gen Z, especially, I am noticing, and I think there is a more of a difference. And so part of it, to put into context, a lot of people don’t quite understand when we talk about generational theory. So just really quick. I’m not going to go deep into it, but just really quickly, generational theory is about when we were being raised, when we were kids, and going through our young you know, even the kind of the Young Life of high school and such, what was going on in the world, what was going on, some significant things that impacted us, that it affects us and our beliefs and our behaviors, that will carry on. And so each generation, that’s why you’ll find too like the dates on generations, they kind of nebulous, in a sense, because it depends. So if you think about that, then with Gen Z, so one of the big things about Gen Z, but having to get to COVID yet, but the so the financial crisis. So when the financial crisis hit, a lot of them, you know, right around 2008 2009 and then that lingering effect a lot of them saw, if not their direct family members, friends, being impacted by that, losing homes, losing jobs, not being able to find work. So because of that, really influenced them. And then when we get into COVID, and that lot of them joined the workforce that also had an impact on them. So that’s what we’re going to be diving in today. Then is a little bit of, okay, yeah, what do they bring that’s unique, but also, as leaders, what can we be doing to help them in this transition?

Kim Bohr 04:55

So when you talk about those ranges that are a little bit nebula. Because I know my son is 18. He’s a freshman in college, so he’s in that generation Z. But what is roughly that range that we know is concurrently that people are experiencing in the workforce?

Dr. Meisha Rouser 05:12

Yeah, so I would say right around 1995 is when Gen Z starts. Now the next generation we will see. But I think they’re talking about, right about, probably around 2012 I think is what they’re talking because that’s going to be interesting too, to see the effects of that generation. But anyway, we’re just talking about Gen Z for today. But yeah, so right around 1995 and usually so I would say right now it’s about the 29 year old, 29 roughly, okay,

Kim Bohr 05:44

okay. So that’s a really significant for several, you know, for many people, they’ve could have been in the workforce for six to eight years already, in the post, maybe college type of experience. So that is, that’s a lot of there’s a lot of established workers already, potentially in this generation. So, you know, when we think about the what they’ve experienced, I mean, yes, you talked about, you know, the housing and things you talk about COVID, I think we should talk a little bit more about COVID, because even though we’re past it, you know, those were formative years for this generation, in a way that uplifted everything. And I’m curious what some of your the research you did were elevating some of those experiences of that generation, yeah, and because that was, um,

Dr. Meisha Rouser 06:31

it was really insightful for me, it gave me a lot of ahas in my research. And so one of the biggest things was the ones who, because my kids are they were just starting to enter the workforce when I did this research. And it was interesting than talking to those individuals who had been in started right out of college, and boom, now it’s COVID, and they’re working remotely, because, at least if you were in college, then you know, you got to adapt right where it’s like, oh, we’re changing now. We’re doing everything online. We’re now. Some of these folks were just thrown in and they’re like, Okay, I have no idea what I’m doing. I have I don’t even know what the proper, appropriate etiquette is to reach out to somebody, because that’s another big one that I realized was when all of us go into when we transition from either high school or what our college, whatever, into the workplace, that’s really where you learn professionalism. That’s really where you learn work ethic, right? And we all went through our times there, and that was something that a lot of these kids did not get. And so they’re struggling even to the point too, which I thought was interesting. I had this so my type of research wasn’t just a survey that went out fill out these generic things. My research was in depth conversation with a variety of Gen Zs, because I wanted to ask them not just okay, like, why is work life balance important to you? But why is that okay? So, going back to COVID, it was interesting. How many of them said it’s like, I feel like I’m behind, because they assume that, yeah, now, even though I’ve been in the workplace for two or three years, that I should know all this stuff, like, you know, getting insurance. What does HSA mean? How do I invest? You know? So it’s, it’s interesting. How much they’re still trying to catch up. Yes,

Kim Bohr 08:21

I could totally relate to that with my son, who you know was this happened in his I think it was last year of junior high into the first year of high school. And boy, did that just throw those key years of social interaction learning, you know, the social aspects of those awkward years, just in a complete, you know, upside down nature. And I know that a lot of the families that have had kids in the same age that we’ve talked about, it was the same thing where it’s been to your point, there has been some catch up to do with this generation to try to have them understand some of these nuances that they just didn’t get in those first couple of years. And of course, it varies from state to state where people live, which is in some ways kind of a challenge, right? Because it’s not, since it wasn’t uniform. In that way, we do have this even bigger gap of experience in this generation. So I’m really curious, too. You know, when you think about, you know, the technology, and this generation’s come up with technology in ways that generations previously haven’t. What is some of that that you’re seeing as the you know, that kind of came through the research as opportunity, or maybe some of the challenges with this generation too, from the contextual standpoint,

Dr. Meisha Rouser 09:34

yeah, it’s interesting, because where I want to go with that is more so that, like a lot of people, for example, with a technology has impacted how we communicate with them. It was interesting in my research, not really, they really. They love doing text messaging right, and especially if they’re busy and they’re in the middle of something, but they do want those person to person conversations if it’s something important, if. Something. They do want that connection. It felt like that was somewhat similar. What I did find was interesting, when we think about technology, was more so social media’s impact. So that one what was interesting, and that I actually my daughter kind of helped me piece that together. Because there was, I’m looking at this research, I’m thinking, some still not looking, and I was like, especially because it came to like, that work life balance, where on one side this generation is just, they really, at least the ones that I talk to are just ambitious. They want a chance to prove themselves. They want a chance to be successful. They want all of that, but yet at the same time they’re saying, Yeah, well, but I don’t want to have to work. I mean, you know, I’m not going to work 80 hours a week. And part of me is like, but where’s that disconnected? My daughter was the one. She’s like, Well, Mom, it’s social media. We are watching influencers from all over the world and that are doing all these things. And we’re like, well, I want to do that too. I was like, Oh, now that is where, I think is the big difference, too, where technology plays in. That’s a really important piece,

Kim Bohr 11:07

because we talk about the pros and cons, right, of that whole digital world we’re all now a part of. And I think, you know, there’s a lot of debate that’s probably for another conversation yet, in this world of expectation setting and breaking what previous generations have been thought about the norms to be. It really is, there’s it’s moving us in a whole different direction. So when we think about the some of the key differentiators, what are some of those things that have stood out that you found in your research, but also in the experience you have in organizations?

Dr. Meisha Rouser 11:39

Yeah. So the key ones, the one I like to address always up front is a little bit of, I still hear people saying kind of the entitlement thing with this generation, yeah. And here’s what I’ve learned with this with through the research, is, let’s just talk about pay, for example. So their loyalty to a company is not the same for them. This was consistent, too, is and especially now, I do gotta say that the people I talk to, most of them, went to college, so keeping that in mind, they’ve spent all this time, it was kind of like they’ve born and raised saying, You do all these check marks all through high school, and then you’re gonna do all these check marks when you get into college, and then you’re going to have this, you know, everything’s going to work out great. Okay, so we saw how that went, and then they’re stumbling their way in. But they also do feel like, though they have busted their butt to get to where they’re at. And so the entitlement is more of they want to feel like they’re making a difference. They want to feel like they’re growing. They want to feel like the company appreciates them and values them, and if they’re not getting that, then they’ll go someplace else. So I had, like a great example was, and this one gentleman, he did such a great job of explaining it. He goes, if I had a company that was going to offer me $10 more, he goes, now, yeah, is it worth going through all the hassles to change employers, all this stuff? And he goes probably not. But would I do it? Yeah? Because it tells me that that other employer values me more

Kim Bohr 13:10

interesting. Wow. Well, and I think let’s talk about that a little bit more, because what you know, what you and I have been talking about, what I’m experiencing with my son as a freshman in college is the prices are high. They trying to figure out how they can live. They’re so concerned, you know, my son is going to college in Montana, and he was so frustrated because he’s not a resident at the time, and he said, You know, I my vote can’t count on trying to bring forward more affordable housing, and this idea of not wanting to be reliant on us beyond what the bare minimum is as a driving factor for him, and yet he’s coming up against these realities that it’s like, how is he going to how do you bridge that gap? So the idea of higher pay starts to go into some basic survival needs, it seems Yes.

Dr. Meisha Rouser 14:02

And that was a really good point of a couple of things. There is that one, that thing where they do not want to have to rely on us. Every single one I talked to success to them was, I am doing this on my own. I thought that was interesting. That is very interesting. Even one of them who did end up was still living with his parents. His parents. But he’s like, Yeah, because if I want to be able to buy a house, okay, one that’s just out of the realm for most Gen Z’s right now. And he goes, I have to save up the money, and this is the only way I’m going to be able to do that. So yeah, the thing that, with the higher prices, the cost of living. It is hard on this generation, Yep, yeah. And

Kim Bohr 14:45

I think there’s, you know, the the generations before, of a mentality like you start off by saying, like, Hey, you you put in the hours, you put your head down, you do the work, you climb through. And that is such a disconnect from not only how this generation, you know, is understand. And how they’ve kind of come into this world, yet it’s also a disconnect of reality of like that. The numbers don’t add up. It just does not make sense. And so I think it’s a really great point to reframe for all of us around this. Isn’t that we shouldn’t be thinking of this as entitlement. We should think about this as them, literally trying to look out for themselves in a way of survival, basic needs, not having to be repelled, relying on their families needed beyond a reasonable amount of time. And so what I also thought was interesting was that where the loyalties come into play. And so I think what do you feel like you know the difference between some of the compensation that comes up with people and some of the needs? Were there some other things that came out in your research that feels like it kind of helps give some clarity to listeners or those in organizations who are leading Gen Z right now before we kind of start to dive into maybe, what are some of the things organizations need to be thinking about? Yeah, so let me mention a couple others. And you when you talked about loyalty, too, I thought that was interesting, so they may not have loyalty to the organization, per se, but they will have loyalty like I managers are a big deal to them. They, you know, if that manager is connecting with them, I was listening to some Gen Z podcast, and they’re even using the word empathetic management. Oh, I thought that was interesting too, because I had like, one woman who she’s, like, she was able to quit, and she was going on to get her master’s, and she had like, six or seven months, and she was but I couldn’t do it because I didn’t want to leave my manager. So there is that loyalty and that and so the influence of their relationship with their manager was definitely a make or break. The other thing that they really are needing is understanding what are my expectations? Because so many of them would say, Okay, well, here I have you know was doing sales. This one gentleman doing sales. He’s like so I had figured out. I knew what my quota was and what I needed to do. He goes. I figured out how to get there to the most efficient way, because I want to go mountain biking, I want to go skiing, I want to go to these other things, but instead of being rewarded, he goes. I’m given more work. I don’t get a raise. I don’t

Dr. Meisha Rouser 17:10

so they’re just like, What the heck? What are these expectations? How do I advance? What is expected of me? And then how am I going to grow? Because again, they also realize, like we were saying earlier, they need to keep making money. So how am I learning? What am I? How am I growing? What am I being exposed to? Those were also really big. I think

Kim Bohr 17:31

the the loyalties piece is so interesting when you think about all the research that you know, the Gallup research, and all the other organizations I’ve done research around, you know, people leave for their managers, and to see that is so important with this generation who’s asking for development, they’re asking for clear expectation setting, which isn’t always the sweet spot of leaders at times, especially, you know, perhaps earlier tenured leaders in roles managers. And I think that you know that is also really interesting to hear the, you know, if I can make it happen, it’s like, Why are you moving the goal post on me? That’s not what we agreed to. And that could create a lot of, yeah, a lot of tension and disconnect. So, you know, coming from your, you know, your background, and then and having this research behind you. You know, I think there’s you, and I have been talking about, what are there’s a lot that organizations can do, and it shouldn’t really be the cookie cutter approach to perhaps how it’s worked with generations prior. And so I’d love for us to dive a little bit into that and talk about, what are some of these things that organizations should really be thinking about. And I think one of the pieces that jumps out immediately is really like, what are the generational differences that managers and leaders need to be trained on? What are some things that have popped out to you that from kind of that worldly experience you have? Yeah, I would

Dr. Meisha Rouser 18:52

say with, like, with the coaching that I do with leaders, especially around the struggles they’re having with Gen Z, I’ve been finding it’s really helpful if, as leaders, any type of understanding that they can have around behavioral differences, communication styles, you know, so for example, like a disc or, you know, a Myers, Briggs, even, or even something of understanding learning styles. Are they visual, auditory, kinesthetic? A great example of that would be, for example, one woman I was working with, oh, she was just the sweetest thing and very empathetic, but was still having such a difficult time connecting with her employee, who was Gen Z, and we did a DISC assessment. I had them both do it, and that totally opened up. She goes, Oh my gosh. So when I thought what you needed to hear for clarity on expectations. I was giving it to you the way she was wanting it, not the way the other woman was. And so she was like, oh, as soon as I realized, oh, okay, let me explain it a different way, huge difference. And so they were able to make that connection. So that one’s also a big. One with feedback, because they want feedback, they want it timely. They want to learn. They want to know, you know, how can I grow and so forth. So also, how to give them feedback? Yes, understand who they are, because everybody wants it different. Yeah, I think that’s such a great point that I want to go a little bit deeper on. You know, when you talk about the assessments, one of the ones that I’m a huge fan of is the Harrison assessment, because it looks at it from a behavioral standpoint, right? And it pairs so nicely with understanding, even like when you think about the disc and some of these others,

Kim Bohr 20:30

it there’s a lot of complimentary nature to having that level of depth and understanding. And one of the things about feedback is I think sometimes we’ve construed feedback for being constructive, when really it’s both. And it think what, you know, I’ve heard from you and experience with my own son, is that they’re looking for more tangible feedback. That is both, you know, what should I be doing more of and what is more constructive, but not just a good, you know, attaboy, that’s really not that that feels hollow to them, and they sense it, and they don’t. That’s not what they’re looking

Dr. Meisha Rouser 20:59

for. Yeah, that’s a really good point. And that reminds me too, one of the other big ones. I one, and this is one of the things I love about this generation, and you mentioned it briefly in the beginning of the old paradigms, they love to ask why? And again, yes, I love that because it’s like, why, just because my manager is working 80 hours a week, totally neglecting his family. Why do I have to do that to be promoted? And they’re they’re asking valid questions that a lot of us have been like, Yeah, but we just kind of sucked it up and we’re just doing it because we were told to do it yes. And I really think this generation is finally like, okay, I get it. You all don’t want to do this. Well, let’s change it then, you know, I love how, like they’re bringing up 30 hour work weeks. We’re actually starting to do research into that. It works, yeah. So they’re getting us to think differently, to think of things in it from a different paradigm.

Kim Bohr 21:53

Yes. And I think that’s so important, because that is very, that is a very different trait from generations prior, and that, you know, many of us were taught you don’t question authority, you don’t quit, right? And that’s so counterproductive in adult life, in most work instances, perhaps, except the military, you know, but there’s, it’s really, it’s very challenging when you now have somebody who’s like, but I’m going to keep asking why, because I want to, you know, they need to have the it needs to make sense for them. And it so ties into the loyalty and the, you know, the engagement and all these other really important factors. So I think when we talk about some of the training, you know, understanding that feedback, what are some of the, you know, some just, it’s a skill set. And I think if managers don’t have it, organizations need to be investing in them with that skill set. You know, there’s other things too that you brought up, but I thought was so important around just some of the basic necessities, things that you know, you found through some of your own experiences that they’re just not they’re looking for and not getting in just some of that stuff to help them be more self sufficient love for you to expand on some of that too. Yeah.

Dr. Meisha Rouser 23:03

I mean, I would say it would be some of the, literally, the basic financial planning, you know, how to start saving up for a house if they even can, how to invest this one. This one’s a personal one, but, like, even my my son, so I was making sure. I’m like, okay, so you’re doing the 401 K that your employer offers. He’s like, Oh yeah. And then I was talking to him about something differently, and I realized are, you, did you go into that, whatever portal it is that your money’s in and invest it, make sure they’re investing it for you? And he’s like, No, it’s just going in there. Like, oh yeah, honey. You can invest that money. It can make money for you, little things like that. You know, again, benefits, work, life balance is a big one to help them how to do, you know, they knew how to do time management in college, but it’s different now. It’s different, yeah, so there’s those types of things and even. And here’s the other thing too, that, and it kind of goes back to the what with them always asking, Why is turn it around too? Remember, as leaders, we don’t have to have all the answers. That’s where our coaching comes in. Ask them, What do you think? How would you do this? What is it that you’re needing some help with? You know what it how would you do it differently with work life balance? Yes, I know you want to have your skiing vacations while also working. So how are you managing those? How can we do it so you can do both of those? Yeah, so just engaging them in those

Kim Bohr 24:29

Absolutely. So I think one of the things that also stands out to you, and maybe some listeners are thinking about this, is like, where’s the fine line between providing things that perhaps they should have gained, versus being in this work world and and I think, you know, I think you and I have a very, you know, probably a very similar perspective, like the work world has evolved to whole person, and yet, is there something there that you would be advising people to from that paradigm shift that’s needed?

Dr. Meisha Rouser 24:59

Yeah, yeah, definitely. And that’s I love it too, because we’re not saying, you know, just roll over and just let them, you know, be them, right? They love structure. Because, again, think about it, they’ve received a checklist their entire life. All I got to do is check this off. So provide that checklist. Here are your expectations. This is what I’m expecting of you. You can do it down to anything from the hours you’re expecting of them to how often you know that you want to be meeting with them. It could be everything from also how to get that promotion, because they want to know they they want to move towards it. The one thing I’ve seen that’s challenging though, that leaders have, and this goes back to understanding them and their own you know, way of how they learn, how they grow, how they communicate. You do need to communicate that in a way that resonates with them. So even though you’re giving, you know, the the templates, I like, I call it creating boundaries, and then total freedom within those boundaries. But they need to really understand what those boundaries are.

Kim Bohr 25:56

I really agree with that. I think the boundaries are huge, and I think there’s so much assumption in our day to day business world, where we think we hire very skilled people, and we think that they can figure it all out for themselves, and we do a disservice when we don’t actually create the boundaries. And sometimes I think leaders are uncomfortable with boundaries themselves, and so they don’t think about bringing them forward and the benefits of them. And so there’s some, certainly some reframing there. That’s opportunity. I think another thing that really, you know, stands out to me when we think about the paradigm shift is there’s all these edge cases that we hear about, you know, somebody’s mother went with them to an interview. And I think that we want to really caution people to not stereotype that into this generation. Because I know nobody in my, you know, network of this generation who’ve have that kind of approach, and so I would say, Please don’t bring that into what you’re thinking about, and saying that the whole generation is really of this nature, since we know it’s not, it’s really not so when we think about, you know, this idea of like, okay, so what can people do if they have, if they have, you know, people on their team right now, or they know that they’re hiring a workforce that this generation is very much, you know, filled with, you know, how do we think about giving leaders the ability to have greater capacity in their level of empathy, you know, understanding curiosity? What are some things that you know that come to mind? I know we started to talk a little about, about feedback. Is there some more things specifically that you’re thinking of from your own experiences too? Yeah. And thinking about, when

Dr. Meisha Rouser 27:31

I think of all the different types, is, remember that you know, so people are people. We are going to be different. We’re all wired differently. We’re all going to be taking information in differently. I think still, that is probably the biggest difficulty for leaders is, how do I do for example, some Gen Z, like all people are going to be more introverted, they’re not going to ask as many questions, and so forth. So again, coaching skills are huge, to be able to understand and to meet them where they’re at coaching. I mean, just the Grow coaching model is such a simple one to be able to help with that. Check ins giving feedback. How do they want feedback? I can’t tell you, there was a number. At least two of them say, okay, they think they’re giving me feedback by calling me out and saying how great of a job I did in front of the entire team, that just mortified them, and they were just Yes, you know? So it’s little things like that that you need to be able to ask them, not just like, how do you want feedback? Because some of them may not know. I’ve always found it easier to say, hey, when you’ve received feedback in the past that you felt like you did a really good job. Why did you feel that way? Right? Was it that you that your manager did?

Kim Bohr 28:40

Yes, and I think it’s what you just said, too. Is such an important nuance of recognition. People have varying degrees on that continuum of what recognition means. There’s the people who absolutely want to be on the stage, and some people are maybe just a simple thank you, and some people are just don’t even want that. They just want to be recognized through pay or through, you know, their ability to promote things like that, right? So I think it’s so important to actually ask, versus just assume that it’s going to be well received by everybody. I think you also talked about the regular check ins. I think that’s so important. And I in a, I do know, in the work, you know, we do from the coaching lens and the teamwork lens it is that’s often not as highly prioritized as a regular opportunity. And the other thing I’ve noticed is that oftentimes managers come in with their own agenda, and then they miss what is actually the most important thing that they should be talking about with their people. And so I think that’s something that for those listening and thinking about what is that regular agenda cadence, what should be included, so that it’s not just at them, but it’s truly a collaborative conversation. And you know, what are some other things that you know you mentioned, some of the clear, you kind of clear expectation setting. Is there anything else in that area you would want to make sure listeners are kind of

Dr. Meisha Rouser 29:56

keeping top of mind? Yeah. And you made me remember another. Big one that I’ll usually get asked a lot is, do they want to work collaboratively or not? And that one is, yes, both. And so they do like working collaboratively, and they do want to be an individual contributor, in the sense that they don’t want to be held back, also sometimes from working just in a group. So there’s a balance there too, of making sure that you can give them both space in both of those so

Kim Bohr 30:24

that kind of leads us into the reality of a hybrid environment that most organizations are still in. I know some are moving more towards in person, yet I think the majority are still going to be in this mixed kind of, you know, mixed media type of a space. So what are some of the recommendations you think listeners could really take in consideration when we have that kind of environment, because I would, I think you and I would agree that not all managers are effective in managing in remote environments, as they would be maybe if they were in person environment,

Dr. Meisha Rouser 30:54

yeah, oh gosh, okay, there’s one. They’re very comfortable with that, I think they are. They do like the in person when they can get it, but they do lean towards a hybrid environment or a remote environment, just so they could have better work life balance as some things. I did think, though that was very interesting, and this came back. So Gallup has always said, you know, like, what are those things that engage employees? And one is to have a best friend at work. Now, here’s what’s different for them. For Gen Z is it appears to be more of because they are online. They’re they’re communicating with their best friends. They’re there, right? So they have that already, but they do want that personal connection again. There was a few times they’re like, I want to know that these aren’t just, you know, I want to know who this person is, yeah, so to also create time, and that’s something that I think if managers could do more of that, especially if they’re in a remote environment of creating time where it’s not just all we jump on a call, it’s just all work, and we jump off, you know, to find all the different ways of how to connect as people as well. Yes,

Kim Bohr 32:03

and that’s challenging for I think I, for most organizations I think are still with that have a hybrid or fully virtual environment. I think that is a challenge to figure out. How do we bring that in authentically, especially when change is so constant, as you and I have talked about. So how do you is there anything in particular you would call out for people to think about creating that psychological safety in these more hybrid or virtual environments that you know maybe shifts at all for this generation? I

Dr. Meisha Rouser 32:33

mean, I think we’ve covered a lot of it already. You know, of understanding who they are, understanding the team being, knowing that you’re there for them, creating the space to hear, you know, what is it that they have to contribute to giving them, you know, the ability to chime in, asking their opinions when giving feedback with feedback, you want to also always make sure that it’s about the behavior or whatever it is they’re Doing, good or bad? Yeah, it’s not about the person, right? So that’s one thing. Always. Want to separate the two and give, you know, you want to give good feedback, in addition to opportunities for growth. You know, it’s all those things. If they feel like that you have their bat and that you’re trying, they pick up on that. I think that’s the biggest thing. And then anything you can do to help them out, just to kind of take them under their wing, you know, when they’re doing something, don’t assume that they know all these adult things,

Kim Bohr 33:28

yeah, and don’t take for granted that they don’t bring value. I think that was the other thing, you know, we think about managing those multi generational teams. I have heard of some organizations trying to be, although I don’t think this is mainstream yet, but trying to be more collaborative with this Gen Z and other generations to help knowledge transfer in different ways, knowing that the digital no man land that they are, they’ve come from, has a tremendous value. And so trying to not, you know, say, like, well, you don’t get it on either party’s part, but really trying to figure out, how does that look like that we could have more cross functional generationally learning and try to leverage one another in a more productive way there too,

Dr. Meisha Rouser 34:12

yes, because that was something too that they really, and this was consistent with everybody as well, is they value learning from as much as they can. And so some like so many of them, said, Yeah, I’m trying to meet with this one guy before he retires, because he just has this wealth of knowledge. And so that kind of goes back to a little bit also, what’s a little different, though, is that I don’t care if it’s their leader, their manager, a co worker, you’ve got to earn their respect if they’re going to really, you know, be respectful back. But so that’s one element of that that you just can’t like, you know, people were trying. And so many times it’s like, okay, we’re going to connect him and mentor, you know, a younger one with the old. Well, if they don’t receive. Respect that person is going to go out the door. And so you may even want to have that conversation of, you know, hey, I would love to get you connected with the mentor in the organization, help them to connect with that older generation. And then it’s great for the older generation, because they love it. Yes, they love sharing their information with others, and that’s

Kim Bohr 35:17

really and so it’s got to have that intentionality is really, key. So I think, you know, as we kind of start to wrap up the conversation, I think there’s we haven’t, we’ve maybe touched a little bit, but I think I’d like to be more intentional around let’s dive into some of the pitfalls that organizations need to and managers need to be thinking about so that they don’t, you know, have, say, have more undoing of behaviors than they, you know, want to have. So I know one thing that you know we’ve talked about is that, you know, over trying to not over focus on these ideas of perks, but that for things to be very meaningful and also to balance that growth opportunity for Gen Z in ways that that also can help them see where what they’re going to gain from it. So really trying to be more intentional and maybe more not just for it to be more again, well, meaningful, right? Yeah, what are some of the other things that you’ve maybe would kind of caution listeners around, yeah. So

Dr. Meisha Rouser 36:13

the perks, I think, are good in the sense of, recognize what the perks are really for. You know, like some people would mention pizza parties. They’re like, Okay, if the pizza party party was a reward because we worked all this overtime, no, but if the pizza party is an opportunity for all of us to get together and, you know, and get away from work and just that’s different, such

Kim Bohr 36:34

a good example. Oh, my goodness, that is in the intention, right? It’s the intent behind that is so big. I love that. I know, you know, another one is, you know that you mentioned it right, that clear structure and expectation saying, so really put the effort in which it does take more time, and yet it’s the return is going to be there. It’s going to be there for everybody. How would you say, you know, we talked about the economic challenges that you know Gen Z is facing. How could organizations, you know, we talked about some of the learning stuff, but is there anything else that they could do to kind of avoid that pitfall that’s going to have, maybe that generation turning over more and more, yeah,

Dr. Meisha Rouser 37:11

and so that one too, because a lot of times, yeah, the economic side of things, it’s out of a lot of our managers hands, right? It’s just, it is what it is. There are so many other things that have value for Gen Z that you could also add in there. You know, get them with a mentor they want to grow, you know, give them some training. Sit down with them and even mentor them. Give them a special project, ask them what else, you know, maybe even cross training. Maybe they’d be curious to do something. I mean, there’s so many ways that there’s value that you could bring to them, you know, maybe they want to work one of the days out, you know, instead of coming into the office three days a week, they want another there’s so many ways to so much value, yeah, that will help them stay in the organization. I love that. And I think

Kim Bohr 37:56

one of the last ones that you’ve really hit home too, is just the human connection part. So being authentic and finding those those ways for them to connect, not just with each other, but with others, you know, across the organization, is really key. So thought,

Dr. Meisha Rouser 38:09

I just thought of one more too. Yeah. Also remember, everybody’s wired differently, but knowing that they’re making a difference can also be really key for the majority of them, you know, so what is the impact of what they’re doing? And so if it’s just making somebody’s day, they’re like, Okay, there was meaning behind that. That’s yeah, remember too.

Kim Bohr 38:32

That’s so important, not just for this generation. But I think we do make assumptions that everybody knows, like, Hey, you come to work, and then here’s our values and mission on the wall, and like, you make the connecting points. And obviously that’s a big disconnect for some. And I think just being able for people to say, like, why my work matters is really important, and for this generation, it’s even more significant. Yes, well, Misha, as we wrap up, the conversation, is there anything you want else you want to to share with the listeners that helps them kind of think, rethink and reframe around this Gen Z.

Dr. Meisha Rouser 39:04

You know, the only thing I would say is, I still, like I said, I am so excited about what this generation is going to bring, what they’re going to be changing. There’s just so they’re just going to be they’re so creative, they’re so imaginative, they’re so collaborative in so many ways, you know, so kind of our job, if we can help foster that, yeah, it’s gonna be amazing.

Kim Bohr 39:29

I agree, and it’s about shaping and not discounting, right? We really have to accept that there’s a tremendous value in this generation, and we need to not delay in bringing them into the fold and learning from them. Well, Misha, thank you so much for the time today, for sharing your insights from your work. I hope our listeners have been able to take some nuggets away for all of those who are listening. We always have our free resources relevant to the conversation today that you can download. Download by visiting courage to advance podcast.com and that will take you to our spark effect podcast page, where you can get the not only the resources from today, but even if you want to check out some of our past episodes. And so again, thank you so much for your insights. I really am also grateful to the empathy edge for hosting our podcast sub series and to our listeners for tuning in to our episode of courage to advance where Transformative Leadership isn’t about having all the answers, it’s about having the courage to find them. Thank you so much. Talk soon

Maria Ross 40:29

for more on how to achieve radical success through empathy, visit the empathy edge.com there. You can listen to past episodes, access show notes and free resources. Book me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes, insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slice. Maria, never forget, empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place.

Cash flow, creativity, and compassion are not mutually exclusive™

Sanela Lukanovic: Daring to Be an Empathetic Leader

Courageous empathy. Yep – it takes courage and strength to break existing leadership paradigms and embrace empathy in our world today. We don’t acknowledge that often enough. Embracing empathy as a leader is as much a self-development exercise as it is a leadership style! Today I speak with Sanela Lukanovic about courageous empathy, how the identity of empathy gets in the way of embracing it at the top, how it can be used against you, and how to practice empathy while avoiding burnout by starting with self-compassion.

Sanela shares how her knack for coaching difficult people without blocking change can enable you to deal with the person rather than the problem. And why we sometimes swing too far between polar opposite paradigms of cold dictatorship and submissive chaos before we can land on what works right for us.

To access the episode transcript, please scroll down below.

Key Takeaways:

Be brave enough to be the type of leader that is required in our workplaces and our world.
You must set boundaries around empathy. If you don’t, you are risking burnout, people-pleasing, and submission in your leadership. You don’t want to wall yourself off, but you don’t want to be walked all over either.
Boundaries allow you to see and allow a back and forth (like over a fence). Barriers impede progress.

“It takes a lot of courage to sit across from somebody and be open and willing to hear their perspective.” — Sanela Lukanovic

Episode References:

The Daring Greatly Programme, based on research by Dr. Brené Brown: selfdom.life/daring-greatly

The Empathy Edge podcast episodes:

From Our Partner:

Go to sparkeffect.com/edge now and download your complimentary Professional and Organizational Alignment Review today.

About Sanela Lukanovic: Transformational Coach and Daring Way™ Facilitator

Sanela Lukanovic is a Transformational Coach and founder of Selfdom. With over two decades of experience, Sanela empowers individuals to lead with authenticity, purpose, and courage. She is a public speaker, thought leader, and expert in coaching women leaders to overcome unique challenges and create value-aligned change.

Using somatic and neuroscience tools, Sanela helps clients achieve holistic personal growth. Her impactful talks and group programs focus on building courage, empathy as a shame resilience tool, perfectionism, boundaries, and self-compassion.

Her background in management consulting and cross-sector experience in leadership development enrich her coaching approach.

Connect with Sanela:

Selfdom: selfdom.life

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/sanela-lukanovic-682927

Instagram: instagram.com/selfdom_life

Connect with Maria:

Get Maria’s books on empathy: Red-Slice.com/books

Learn more about Maria’s work: Red-Slice.com

Hire Maria to speak: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross

Take the LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy

LinkedIn: Maria Ross

Instagram: @redslicemaria

Facebook: Red Slice

Threads: @redslicemaria

FULL TRANSCRIPT:

Sanela Lukanovic 02:36

Thank you so much for having me. So tell

Maria Ross 02:39

us a little bit about you and how you got into this work of being a transformational coach and helping leaders tap into their authenticity and overcome challenges.

Sanela Lukanovic 02:52

I came into it via my first career was in consulting, in management consulting, in people transformation. But I think I knew when I was 15 that my real passion and my curiosity was always about people and people transformation and what makes people tick, and why people around me were behaving in strange and fabulous ways that I couldn’t understand, I think. But I took a scenic route to get into coaching, because my parents were keen to for me to do economics and have a proper job other than do psychology. And, you know, do what I’m doing now, I guess. So, yeah, but kind of transition slowly from doing people and people change within big transformational project. I had a knack for dealing with difficult people and kind of getting people to embrace change and understanding what actually blocks that change within the bigger systems. And then when I back in 2004 I discovered that there is this thing as coaching. And then I jumped a bit. That was my chance to kind of get back on a train, or catch the train. That was more, you know, to who I am and what I want to do, but I came into courage work, which is what I’m currently doing and what I’m passionate about through by being stuck myself in sort of that feeling that I wasn’t daring enough in my life and not daring enough in my business. And then I came across Brene work, Brene Brown on vulnerability and shame and resilience. And I was like, Yes, I want more of that, and that’s how I, you know, started my personal development through that, and now that forms the majority of my work. So

Maria Ross 04:49

I’m so curious, what kinds of people do you work with, and what are the challenges they’re bringing to you? How are they articulating what the problem is, or what the challenge?

Sanela Lukanovic 05:01

Challenges. So I work mostly with leaders within the organizations and also entrepreneurs. So the type of challenges that, because I’m a transformational coach, which is essentially means that I deal with the person, but then the problem so I get people who already feel that what has got them and got them, the success that they’ve achieved at to that point in their lives is no longer working. So they would, I mean, they present in very different ways, but most of the time is, you know, I want to be more daring. I want to I want more confidence. I want more peace in my head. There is something about being more present to and kind of not feeling torn and constantly plagued by doubt and self criticism I get. I work a lot with perfectionism, which is one of the biggest blockers to courage, as you know. So, yeah, you know, people want to be connected with their teams. They want to lead with authenticity. They want to be better leaders to maybe leaders that they’ve had and experienced. So those are the kind of people I love working but the key for me is the person feels that, that push, that what I’ve done so far, I no longer want, you know, that kind of coping strategy. I no longer want that, you know, I want to step into myself, into my most authentic self. I love what

Maria Ross 06:38

you’re saying, because what I’m getting from this also, is this way of looking at empathy that I hadn’t thought about before, that it is an act of bravery. It’s an act of daring to be an empathetic leader. And I know this, and this is why I write my books and I do my talks and I do my leadership trainings, but I don’t think I’ve ever articulated it that way in terms of sometimes I have of be brave enough to be the type of leader that’s required right now in our world and in our workplaces, but it is an act of daring to be more people centric than you have been, and this is where I actually have empathy for those in my generation and older who sort of came up with different rules to get to success, And now we’re telling them a bunch of different roles. We’re saying, you know, way back when it was command and control, it was don’t ever admit you don’t know, it was don’t get work is work and personal is personal. And now we’re saying, No, get to know everybody. Care about people. Be vulnerable, be transparent. And I have empathy for those leaders who are like, wait what? Like I thought for 30 years, I’ve been doing it this way, and that sounds great, but that sounds scary at the same time. So how can you talk a little bit more about especially as it relates to empathy, as it relates to and I always like to say empathy is not crying on the floor with your employees. It’s just trying to see someone else’s point of view, right? So what Given that, what do you feel gets in the way of leaders at the top embracing empathy? Is it the myths that I talk about? Is it something within themselves? What do you see as some of the biggest barriers for them? I

Sanela Lukanovic 08:20

love, absolutely love how you’re connecting empathy and bearing, because it takes a lot of courage to sit across to somebody and be open and willing to hear that perspective. Yep, because there’s a lot of risk, there is a lot of uncertainty, there’s lots of emotions, you know, to handle your emotions, to handle the other person’s emotions, to connect with something in you that knows something about the struggle that they are in, and also to keep yourself out and focus on the other person. So that takes a lot of courage. So I love that brain. Yeah, you’ve just done that. That is that really resonates with me. I talk

Maria Ross 09:01

about it in terms of, you know, empathy is actually a strength, because it requires strength to be able to take on someone else’s point of view without defensiveness or fear. So I love it. It’s all about daring. Yeah. So what do you think gets in their way? What do you hear from your top performing leaders?

Sanela Lukanovic 09:18

So what gets in a way? I think both things, what you’ve just mentioned, the external perception about empathy that we have to reframe. And I mean people, what I love about your work, that you are actually speaking to, that your books, you’re actually educating and reframing this concept that, well, empathy is a weakness, or the empathy is soft. So there is that perception, outside perception and expectations or associations around empathy, but there is also inside their skills and level of self awareness and level of self presence that is required to. Actually do empathy effectively. So I kind of see them on both, you know, both are required, and that’s where my work comes in, and that’s where, you know, education also is is invaluable, because it’s going to take some time for those myths to be addressed. So from the outside, like if I look at the you know, empathy is a weakness. As you know what you’re talking in your books, it’s so much easier. This is the kind of the paradox. It is so much easier to do command and control. And often time when we talk about empathy, people will say, well, it’s going to take a lot of time. It takes so much time, exactly, yeah, so much time. And, or, you know, it’s kind of also like, when we talk about it, people kind of get this sense that you are, you’re kind of constantly embracing every single conversation from that place of empathy. And I have to kind of say, well, you know, no, it’s like, you don’t do anything. 24/7, it’s a, I see empathy is something that you allow yourself to develop. It’s one of the tools, a very, very, very valuable tool that you deploy and tap into and access when you need it. So, yeah, so it’s that sense of that. It is a weakness. It’s not it takes a lot of courage to be in a difficult conversation where I have to hear your point of view, or I have to communicate something that is hard for me to tell you, maybe I need to lay you off, maybe I need to give you a performance feedback. And what scares people in those conversation, what I find, and I think sometimes we just hide between, you know, behind this, you know, it’s a weakness. What really scares people is, oftentimes it’s like, how you’re going to react to this, how am I going to hold this space? How am I going to be able to manage myself, and then, what is the outcome? How am I going to control the outcome? And I think we get bogged down in that noise and forgetting that actually empathy is all about connection. Is about coming from that place of kindness and connection and holding, also the, you know, being very clear about the outcomes that you need to achieve from whatever situation. So the book I often find having to explain to people that actually, they’re not binary. It’s not like, you know, you’re either empathetic or you achieve results I often have this

Maria Ross 12:37

is, this is my mantra, yeah, this is the whole thing about my work, is that it’s not binary decision. It’s not either or leadership. It’s empathy and high performance, empathy and ambition, empathy and accountability. And I 100% agree with you the work that I’m doing is that we have more of us have to be out there, reframing and educating on what empathy actually is at work, and that it’s not just emotional empathy, it’s cognitive empathy, it’s the way you have conversations, it’s the benefits you offer, it’s how you do a difficult performance review. It’s not just changing your mind to make other people happy, and I think that’s what so many of them get caught in that trap about empathy. You know being about people pleasing, they fall into submission, which I wanted to get into that with you is what advice or habits do you have to offer around people who struggle with setting the boundaries around empathy, because we know it leads to burnout. It leads to something that isn’t empathy. It leads to people pleasing or submission. So do you have any advice or tips that you can share that have worked for your clients, and maybe some stories to share about how you get past that and how you can set those boundaries? So you’re not completely walling yourself off, but you’re being very clear about your boundaries. Yeah, beautiful.

Sanela Lukanovic 14:05

The metaphor that I’m seeing about walling yourself off versus having boundaries, and I had a conversation with my client today about that same thing. So often time people who embrace so, people who already embrace empathy, then it’s very hard to I find that there needs to be a transition where empathy is not the only thing. So I find it the it’s most difficult for people to set boundaries, who identify, who kind of have an idea of who they are that is linked to empathy. So I’m empathic, empathetic or empathic leader, and that means absence of something else. That means absence of ability to say no. It means absence of having to hold somebody. Accountable. It means it kind of that whole idea, the ideal identity around that gets so it really so that’s one of the thing. First thing that I would do is really under Help them understand what does that mean in to kind of try to uncover what are the beliefs and expectations that have sneaked in there that are preventing them from actually being kind and being considered, being understanding, but at the same time having boundaries. So that’s the first thing that I would look at, that kind of ideal leader that they want to do. And in there, a lot of thing can be cleared out and sort of just it can be brought to their awareness, and they can say, well, that doesn’t really make sense. The other thing is, I think people boundaries is something that people generally have kind of visceral kind of reaction to them, and it goes oftentime, it goes back to their experience of boundaries as a child, or experience of boundaries in general. So there is, I often try to identify if people are moving away so like that, contrary to, like, you know, I had strong, you know, a boss who was, you know, so boundary that, like, you know, that it made their life really difficult. And, or they had a parent who was like that, and they’re trying to be the opposite of that. So we are trying to get the first thing is to kind of try to define that for yourself, a clear those things that no longer those perceptions that no longer serve you. So instead of having, you know, it’s a wall, how about is a fence around the garden that you populate with your values and that you have do’s and don’ts about like, you know, when you enter my garden, when you enter my place, these are the ways to behave in this space, so that both of you, both of us, can feel safe and good in this space. And that is what boundaries about. So really reframing how we see boundaries and then practicing really taking the small steps. So today’s for example conversation. The whole conversation was about, can I be, you know, when I’m kind and generous and when I’m empathetic and really putting myself out and for my clients, I am valued, I’m respected. People love, you know, love what I do, and that is what gives me, you know, fills my cup. And if I stop doing, if I put boundaries, that means that I’m going to put boundaries and not allow for that to come into my life. So unpacking that is super, super important that actually you can be, you can have that, but you also need to learn how to show up in a way when you feel that somebody is misusing your generosity, right? So those are the kind of, I don’t know if there are tips, but that’s the kind of work, the approaches, yeah, the approach that needs to happen, but it is really around reframing and letting go of whatever experiences you’ve had with boundaries that are keeping you stuck in kind of one dimensional way of being or behaving in a given context.

Maria Ross 18:17

This is so great because it’s making me think of a couple of episodes that I’ll put links to in the show notes. I did an episode on how to do layoffs with compassion, and also another episode on how to have honest conversations. And this comes up over and over again, and I usually love citing my sources, but I can’t remember who or where I heard this in recent weeks. It may have been a conference I attended last week, but it was understanding the notion between boundaries and barriers, and that boundaries allow me to see and allow me allow a back and forth, like you said your fence metaphor, barriers don’t allow any progress that impedes progress. And so looking at, are you really setting a boundary, or are you putting up a barrier, and if you’re putting up a barrier, why is it out of fear? Is it out of I don’t want to show my vulnerability. I don’t want to show that I don’t have all the answers. Or are you creating a boundary that is just something you want to clearly communicate? I talk about in the new book The Empathy dilemma. I talk about boundaries, setting boundaries, articulating your boundaries, is actually an act of self care, but it’s also an act of clarity. It’s in the clarity pillar too, because I want to be very clear and so what, what I have found helpful is giving people some example scripts. So one of them is an example of you have an employee who is coming into your office at 10 till four in the afternoon on the Tuesdays that you always leave early to go to your son’s soccer game and they are upset about something. They’re angry about something, they want to talk about an interpersonal issue they’re having with another person on the team. You have two choices. You can lose your boundary and just sit and listen. Which is, is might be appropriate, depending on where the person is. But you can also kindly acknowledge the person with empathy and say this is clearly really important to you, which means it’s important to me. But as you know, I have to leave early on Tuesdays for my son. So what I would like to do is I’m going to clear some time tomorrow morning. Let’s talk tomorrow morning. You’ll have some time to digest. You can send me an email in advance of that conversation if you want to, but I’m going to clear an hour for you tomorrow morning so we can actually talk about it. That is an empathetic way to keep your boundary but still acknowledge someone else’s pain or suffering or frustration or anger and see and value them that you’re going to make time for them tomorrow, like no one’s going to die tonight, right? So yes, I think that that’s like, when people hear that, they go, Oh, wow, I can communicate in that way, yeah. And they don’t realize that that’s actually empathy, right? So I really find that giving people those scripts and reminding myself of those scripts, quite honestly, of like this, is really important. I’ve done this when I’ve had to move meetings or and I just go, hey, you know what? I this is really important to me, and I’m all over the place this afternoon. I know we were going to meet and talk about X, but I really want to focus on what you have to say. So can we schedule a different time? Absolutely, you’re honoring them. You’re honoring you like and that’s where I feel like we get that boundaries don’t have to be a wall. Boundaries can just mean like, I loved your metaphor of the garden. I can still see the garden. I can still appreciate the garden. Lets me talk over the fence with you, but

Sanela Lukanovic 21:41

and I can invite you in, this is the thing like, you know, I invite you in. There’s just rules of do’s and don’ts, you know, this is how I want you to treat me. This is how I treat I’m treating you. These are the values that I cannot step over, etcetera. So there is something about Clari I really appreciate you making and it’s really clear that communicating with empathy, it’s CLA it’s communicating with clarity. Often times, what gets in the way I find is that when we we think that we are empathetic or empathic with somebody, by trying to dilute the message that yes, that we actually want to say yes. You know those kind of situations where we tiptoe around it, yeah, yeah, yeah. And we’ll be kind of buried in the middle of we start a meeting. And here I am to tell you some you know about, you know, meeting that went wrong. And I talk about, you know, five minutes about your work that you’ve done, like, you know, last week, and then you’re a very valued employee, and, you know, I really appreciate you. Blah, blah, blah, blah. And all the time you are waiting you know that something is coming, but a I am kind of freaking you out, and I am losing courage to actually speak clearly about what needs to be spoken about. So there is something about where we are trying to be kind, where I would say being nice for this kind of thinking, that is this in service of empathy. But actually that is not that Absolutely. It just kills trust. It makes people, people’s nervous systems go on guard, and it really and I think we often do that, not for the sake of the other person, for our own comfort. We do that for our own comfort. So going back to your question about what is the thing that really stops or prevents people tapping into sympathy is our own self awareness and our own ability to our awareness and connection to our own emotions and our emotional literacy, our ability to regulate our emotions in those moments of, you know, when we are vulnerable. Yeah, and this is, you know, telling you something that kind of might upset you, feels vulnerable to me, right? It’s vulnerable to you. So it’s really, really, one of the I kind of feel that both needs to be together, like, yes, empathy, boundaries, emotional resilience, or emotional regulation, regulation and understanding, being present to that in yourself at all times. Yeah, yeah,

Maria Ross 24:18

sorry. Well, and that’s, that’s why, you know The first pillar in the new book is self awareness. What are my strengths? What are my emotional triggers? What am I bringing to the interaction that could get in the way of a positive interaction with this person, or new ideas or new innovations? We are not many of us are walking through life blind to what we bring to the table, whether it’s bad habits or whether it’s energy we bring, or even just how we can leverage our strengths in certain situations, right? So I think that’s so important, because that’s where you know, when I was hearing a lot and doing a lot of research around people burning out as. Especially post pandemic, because of everything they’d done, they bent over backwards for their employees during the pandemic, which was great, and we don’t want to go back, you know, we created a different paradigm for workplace culture, and it already was starting. It’s just the pandemic accelerated. It we don’t want to lose the progress we’ve made and the momentum we’ve made however. We do need to go back a little bit to Okay. We need to help set people’s expectations about there was a time when everything was 100% flexible. We’re not in that time anymore, and I know that’s really hard, but we need to pull back on certain things. You know, for our particular company, we might need to come back to the office two days a week or three days a week. I have other opinions about return to office, but the point is, you’ve got to make whatever business decisions for your business that you’re going to make, and then clearly communicate that, but recognize that it might be hard for people, and even just in that delivery of I know this might not be what you want. I know that this might be hard for you. We’re doing it. So what? How can we support you through this thing that is going to happen, whether you’re happy about it or not? Yeah, yeah. So I think that’s so important, and at that to your point, that’s so hard, where we tiptoe around those things. And I am one of those people that I get really impatient when someone’s not clear, and I will actually go, Well, so what is it? What’s your point? What’s your What are you trying to say?

Sanela Lukanovic 26:29

Just get me out of my misery. Now. You

Maria Ross 26:33

don’t want them to come out. Like, okay, come into my office. So you’re being fired today. I mean, you don’t want, I love the term, like, radical candor is great, but I heard the term from an executive at VaynerMedia that said we actually call it kind candor, because we don’t get an excuse to be a jerk just because we’re telling Oh yes, right, yes.

Sanela Lukanovic 26:51

People go, Well, I’m just being honest, right? Yeah, oh gosh, that’s the yeah

Maria Ross 26:56

and so yeah, I think to your point, and I’m trying not to talk so much over you, but this idea of where sometimes the advice, depending on the person, can swing the pendulum too far the other way, right? So you give that advice of, like, we need to be direct, we need to be, you know, confident. We need to be. And then with a certain type of person, it falls into, I’m being a total jerk in this conversation. How do you help your leaders balance that? How do you help them balance like, Nope, there’s a nuance to that. There’s a nuance to this. How do you help them through that? Is it trial and error, or is it just preparing them from a self awareness standpoint, I think when

Sanela Lukanovic 27:39

we are embrace my experience when we’re embracing a new skill. If somebody has come from a place of lot of control, perfectionism, really disconnected with their own emotional experience of things, so it’s very hard to connect with other people. They haven’t done it. I always say you’re going to swing, you know, to do something, to learn something, you you have to kind of swing and maybe push through on the other end to to find your own way of doing things. And empathy is one of those things that you know, we can’t do perfectly all the time. And that’s another that’s one permission that I give myself. It is not about, you know, saying the right things. People often worry about saying the right things, you know, reacting the right way, not messing it up. And my advice is, you’re going to mess it up. You’re not going to say the right thing. Just accept that, because we are humans, and empathy something that goes two ways, like, you know, empathy, essentially, is connection. I think, you know, if we, if you forget about, you know, how we call these things, you know, am I in connection, human to human? Can I hold that? Can I open myself to that and then have a conversation with you. So I think that really helps to people too. I love that, you know, you know, I say, like, you know, my job is to listen with empathy, and I can sometimes, you know, that’s my job. Like, you know, and I teach that, and I get it wrong, yeah. Like, you know, sometimes, you know, my kids will say something, and my mama bear comes first, you know, whether it’s to save or to say something that you know, to kind of lift the mood by saying, well, it’s not that bad, like, you know something. And then I hear myself saying, I was like, Yeah, take it back. Take it back. Take it back.

Maria Ross 29:36

It’s sort of like when you teach someone just basic business skills as an example, right? And we’ve all seen the comedic moment of you tell someone to have a firm handshake, and then they shake someone’s hands so hard, it’s like they go overboard, because they’re someone told them this was the skill to build. And so I love that idea of, like, preparing people that you might swing the. Pendulum a little too far and so, but hopefully you get back, you get some feedback, and you are able to adjust it to a place that benefits both of you and moves the conversation closer to your goals. But I love that idea of giving permission, and you know, I often talk about this in terms of the empathy gym, and strengthening that muscle is that, first of all, you can’t just build it and stop it will atrophy again. But also, you know, if it’s new for you, if it’s new for you to ask questions, for example, you know, we advise about curiosity, if it’s new for you to ask your team members or your colleagues questions and get curious. It’s gonna feel you’re gonna feel sore, just like you would in a new workout routine. It’s gonna feel awkward. Your muscle memory is not really working. But I also talk to them about, when we talk about vulnerability, it’s not just about, you know, being a puddle on the floor and letting it all hang out. You can be like we talked about vulnerably confident, and say, Hey, this is something I’m working on. And so it might, you know, if you’re looking at me funny, why? Why? I’m actually asking everybody how their weekend went? I’m actually working on my empathy, because I understand that empathy will help our team drive better performance and engagement. So I’m working on it, and I’m not going to get it right. Yes, I would love your feedback on that. Yeah. I mean, yeah, absolutely,

Sanela Lukanovic 31:28

absolutely. And kind of getting engaging other people into that and being transparent. That’s really huge moment of vulnerability and transparency. Yeah, so that you know, people can help you out you’re mentioning about this muscle, empathy muscle. I believe that managing and practicing self compassion, which is the empathy towards ourselves, self empathy, self empathy, yeah, is I find what. That’s where I would start clients and select this, you can always work on this uh huh, because and the more you work on self compassion and exercising that muscle, then it’s going to be easier for you to connect with other people as well, right? Because what I find people who are extremely self critical, whilst they can be empathized with people who are not directly linked to their work or themselves, they can kind of they have understanding that somebody in purchasing has made, made a mistake, or something like blah, blah, blah, however, when that person comes to their team and Now their work is direct representation of them that lack of self compassion, if they’re very, you know, have a lot tolerance for mistakes and failures of any description, they’re gonna struggle to empathize with and be allowing for that to happen with that person. So I always say, like if you are practicing empathy also practice self compassion. Because what Yes, the more you have of one, the more you have of

Maria Ross 33:07

the other. I think that’s so valuable, because you also hold other people to the standard you hold yourself. And I know the things that really irk me about other actions are the ones that I get mad at myself at the most, like if I’m late, or if I misspell something, or I’m very critical, and I find that it’s that lens that I use when other people are making those same mistakes, right? I make all kinds of judgments. I make all kinds of assumptions. And when you learn to sort of let it go a little bit for yourself, it’s easier for you to understand, wow, that happens to other people too.

Sanela Lukanovic 33:50

Yes, yeah, yes, absolutely, and the moment. So in that exam, I would just add that we are we need to acknowledge that actually making that mistake, like, you know, I really care. I really care not to make a spelling mistake. I really care, you know, this is important to me. So when that happens, there is a moment of compassion that says, Wow, I really know how hard you know how much you care for this. And this really bugs you. There is a moment of, I see you, yeah, that we can do it for ourselves. So then when a colleague does that, yeah, we can kind of say, Yes, I see you. I, you know, yes, made a mistake. And then once you because that is the moment of connection to self. And then I can, I acknowledge that, and then I can go into, alright, so what, what can I learn from this? You know, did I Was that too fast? Was I, you know, do I maybe need somebody to proofread after me? Like, you know, I can problem solve after that, but I go to that after I have a moment of what I call I see. Moment, it’s okay, I see you. Yeah, I don’t need to kind of convince myself that I don’t care about it. This is what my clients struggle with. Like, you know, there’s something when we start being empathetic to other people or compassionate to ourselves, we get into this. I don’t know. I really, honestly don’t know why it happens, but there is a sense of, oh, I have to forgive myself everything, and I have to be accepting of everything, and therefore I have to be understanding and accepting of other people’s action. But empathy is not about, you know, I unconditionally accept your behavior, right? I unconditionally I accept that you’re underperforming. Yeah, exactly, yeah. No, it definitely not. So there is something around, you know, part of my work often kind of comes to that place of, okay, now, how do you do that? How can you just bring another team member? I often talk about this. You just need. You have this empathetic person who, and, you know, who comes and connect and understands, and then you have this other person who can talk about accountability. So yeah. So we need to understand that we are multi dimensional and multi multi, multi skilled, really, yeah,

Maria Ross 36:10

absolutely, yeah. So as we wrap up any final words of wisdom around what courageous empathy looks like, what we can do to achieve it? Oh, I love that courageous empathy.

Sanela Lukanovic 36:31

I would say the most courageous thing that we can do when being in any relationship with another person is to be congruent, to be constantly present to what is true for us. Because when we have certain emotions and certain things happening in our body and we are not 100% aligned, it doesn’t really matter what we say, and this is where we kind of do the right things we you know, quote unquote, yeah, quote unquote. We do the right things, we say the right thing, but we feel that disconnection. Why do we feel that? Because we we are, we are not aligned within so my biggest advice or courageous work is to be in touch with that and be truthful to yourself, so that you can be clear then and talk from that place, rather than kind of doing performative empathy. I love

Maria Ross 37:40

it, and you have a program to help leaders dare greatly. So we will put the link to that in the show notes, based on the work of Dr Brene Brown. We’ll also put all your links in the show notes. This has been so wonderful and so many great insights, and I know people listening are going to want to learn more about you and more about your work. And as I said, I’ll put all the links in the show notes. But for anyone who’s on the go right now or exercising, where’s the best place that they can find out more about you?

Sanela Lukanovic 38:09

Self, Dom dot, life, self, Dom dot, life, life, self, life, correct? So that’s yeah, they can find me there. Wonderful, All

Maria Ross 38:20

right, wonderful. Well, Sanela, thank you so much for your time and your insights today. It was wonderful to connect. Thank you so much for having me and thank you everyone for listening to another episode of the empathy edge podcast. If you like what you heard, you know what to do. Please rate, review and share with a friend or a colleague, and until next time, please remember that cash flow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be kind. For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy. Visit the empathy edge.com there you can listen to past episodes, access show notes and free resources. Book me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes, insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slice Maria, never forget, empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place.

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