Teams today are more diverse than ever—and within that diversity lies the potential to unlock innovation, performance, and belonging. But only if leaders practice cultural humility. It’s not just about competence or checking boxes; it’s about fostering safety, trust, and transformation.
Dr. Joel Pérez equips leaders to navigate today’s instability with empathy and authenticity. He has partnered for decades with national nonprofits, corporations, and higher education institutions to deliver keynotes, workshops, and strategic consulting that inspire action and lasting change.
In this conversation, we unpack what cultural humility really means, how leaders can move beyond cultural competence, how cultural humility can help you navigate the instability of today’s market and world, why he wrote Dear White Leader, and how organizations can leverage diversity to create lasting impact and stronger results.
To access the episode transcript, please scroll down below.
Listen in for…
- How to develop a posture of cultural humility, no matter your background.
- Understanding the difference between cultural competency and cultural humility.
- Raising the bar as a leader from effective to exceptional.
- Curiosity is the key to achieving your goals.
- The three things that are necessary to move from cultural competency to cultural humility are.
“Cultural humility allows you to navigate the complexity that comes with developing organizations with a strong sense of belonging and psychological safety.” — Dr. Joel Pérez
Episode References:
- Book: Dear White Leader: How to Achieve Organizational Excellence through Cultural Humility: dearwhiteleader.com
- Terry Cross Cultural Competence Research
- Janet Helms
- Seek: How Curiosity Can Transform Your Life and Change the World by Scott Shigeoka
- EEP Episode: Amer Kaissi: Humbitious Leadership Equals Success
About Dr. Joel Pérez, Executive Coach and Author of Dear White Leader:
Dr. Joel Pérez is an executive and leadership coach, speaker, and consultant who helps leaders and organizations create inclusive cultures through the practice of cultural humility. As founder of Apoyo Coaching and Consulting, LLC and a Professional Certified Coach with the International Coaching Federation (ICF), he specializes in identity-conscious leadership, career transitions, and DEIB strategy. A Gallup Certified Strengths Coach, Qualified Administrator for the Intercultural Development Inventory (IDI), and certified LEGO® SERIOUS PLAY® facilitator, Joel draws on more than 20+ years of leadership experience in higher education to guide clients through meaningful transformation.
He is the author of Dear White Leader: How to Achieve Organizational Excellence through Cultural Humility, which received the Silver Medal for Best New Voice – Nonfiction from the Independent Book Publishers Association. Joel has partnered with national nonprofits, corporations, and higher education institutions to deliver keynotes, workshops, and strategic consulting that inspire action and lasting change. His work moves organizations toward creating a sense of belonging and the psychological safety to meet their goals.
Joel holds a doctorate in higher education administration from Claremont Graduate University. Outside of work, he enjoys life with his wife of over 28 years, their four children, cheering on the Los Angeles Dodgers, and watching movies.
Connect with Dr. Joel Pérez:
Apoyo Coaching and Consulting: apoyocoaching.com
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/joelperezphd
Instagram: apoyocoaching01
Connect with Maria:
Get Maria’s books: Red-Slice.com/books
Hire Maria to speak: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross
Take the LinkedIn Learning Courses! Leading with Empathy and Balancing Empathy, Accountability, and Results as a Leader
LinkedIn: Maria Ross
Instagram: @redslicemaria
Facebook: Red Slice
FULL TRANSCRIPT:
Maria Ross 00:00
Welcome to the empathy edge podcast, the show that proves why cash flow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. I’m your host, Maria Ross, I’m a speaker, author, mom, facilitator and empathy advocate. And here you’ll meet trailblazing leaders and executives, authors and experts who embrace empathy to achieve radical success. We discuss all facets of empathy, from trends and research to the future of work to how to heal societal divisions and collaborate more effectively. Our goal is to redefine success and prove that empathy isn’t just good for society, it’s great for business. Teams today are more diverse than ever, and within that diversity lies the potential to unlock innovation, performance and belonging, but only if leaders practice cultural humility. It’s not just about competence or checking boxes. It’s about fostering safety, trust and transformation. Dr Joel Perez, executive coach, consultant and award winning author of Dear White leader, has spent more than 20 years guiding leaders through identity, conscious leadership, deib strategy and inclusive culture building, as founder of apoyo coaching and consulting. Joel is a professional certified coach with the international coaching Federation, and is a Gallup certified strengths coach, qualified administrator for the intercultural Development Inventory and a certified Lego serious play facilitator. Joel equips leaders to navigate today’s instability with empathy and authenticity. He’s partnered for decades with national nonprofits, corporations and higher education to deliver keynotes, workshops and strategic consulting that inspire action and lasting change. In this conversation, we unpack what cultural humility really means, how leaders can move beyond cultural competence, how cultural humility can help you navigate the instability of today’s market and world. Why he wrote Dear White leader, and how organizations can leverage diversity to create lasting impact and stronger results. You will get so many ahas in this conversation about yourself and your own leadership style. So take a listen. Big. Welcome to Dr Joel Perez, welcome to the show, to the empathy edge. I am delighted to talk to you today about operational excellence through cultural humility, and for you to share your insights with us about all the things we think about inclusion and maybe where we’re missing opportunities to embrace cultural humility in order to achieve results in our organizations. So welcome to the show. Oh, it’s good to be here. Thank you,
Dr. Joel Pérez 02:54
Maria for having me and really looking forward to this conversation. I am too.
Maria Ross 02:59
And so before we get going, as we always do, share a little of your story with us. How did you even get into this work? Why are you so passionate about it all
Dr. Joel Pérez 03:09
the things? Yeah. So thank you for the question. So as you you see an accent on my last name, Joel Bettis, born in Los Angeles, son of immigrants, grew up in a predominantly initially fairly white neighborhood that changed over time. So lived white flight growing up and then went off to college where I was not part of the majority culture, and that shaped my worldview, particularly around diversity, equity and inclusion. Identify as a man of color, Chicano, Latino. Spanish was my first language, and I really believe higher education was going to be my vocation. And started that track, masters, PhD, working in higher education. And then as things happen, you get a new senior leader, and things change, and I ended up having to pivot. And the one thing that really pulled me in was coaching. I always thought I wanted to be an executive coach, but was going to do it in retirement, and things got sped up, mainly because we were living in a really good community. Our kids didn’t want to leave their schools. We didn’t want to move, and so we stayed. And in that process, leaned into getting certified as a coach, and then started coaching. In that coaching process, one of the things I started doing was helping white leaders who wanted to get better at leading diverse teams, but didn’t know where to start, or were feeling stuck. And I had been introduced to the concept of cultural humility in the mid 2000s and it had stuck with me, mainly because I was very familiar with cultural competency, but I always felt like at the end of the cultural competency conversation that. There should be more. Because competency, for me, felt like a box, to check an i to dot, a T to cross, something to be achieved, whereas cultural humility was really dry to me because like, oh, it’s about developing the ability to lead well within the complexity that comes with leading, creating an inclusive organization. So in the work that I was doing, particularly with white leaders who wanted to get better, I was doing what I would call a so called cultural humility coaching, and I recognized that there was a story to share, and that led me to writing the book, Dear White leader, how to achieve organizational excellence through cultural humility. Now, Maria, you’ve written books, and you know, if you don’t have a target audience, you don’t have an audience Exactly. And so my target audience is white leaders who want to get better. Now, every concept of the book is applicable to any leader, regardless of your cultural background, your identity, your salient identity, right? So I do workshops and trainings around, how do you develop or move towards a posture of cultural humility, no matter what your cultural background is or whatever your salient identities is. But to answer your question, what compelled me was working with the leaders I was working with, and wanting to change the way we approach this work with this posture, because identities will continue to change, culture will continue to morph. And in that process, I realized that this posture helps you engage in difficult dialog with a deep sense of curiosity, where you’re seeking to understand versus seeking to
Maria Ross 06:42
convince love it. I love it. I talk about empathy being a method of connection, not coercion. And so everything you’re saying is resonating for me. I’d love a breakdown, though, of what is the difference between cultural humility and cultural competence? So when you talk about cultural competence being a checkbox. Is it more like I know about other cultures and I recognize them, and then where does cultural humility take that? Yeah, you can do some definitions for us. No, I appreciate that.
Dr. Joel Pérez 07:13
So I was just with actually doing a webinar before jumping on here, talking about that cultural competency is important. It is the foundation Terry cross and his associates back in the late 80s, did a lot of work about around cultural competency. But like you said, it’s it was about understanding a culture and then applying the skills you learn so that you can better lead or your organization to do better work. The Challenge Maria is that, because things continue to change, what may have worked 10 years ago doesn’t work anymore. The example I’ll give you is that I have a 17 year old who came out to us when they were in middle school, and I was certain I was going to raise four heterosexual children, and that was not the case anymore, right? I had to do a lot of work myself in the sense of, how do I create this posture of cultural humility in my fatherhood, where I’m seeking to understand, creating space to explore. It’s not about checking boxes and like, Okay, did this, I did that, I did this, which I’m not saying cultural competency, that is necessarily that specifically, but that’s how it feels. Whereas cultural humility is about a sense of openness, right? Understanding, engaging in dialog. You may not agree with the person at the end of the day, right, but you’re walking away with a better understanding, whereas I believe competency just feels a little bit more like an academic, yeah, endeavor where culture humility, because humility is something a lot of leaders aspire to have, but it’s hard to obtain. And I would say, because it’s a process. It’s a lifelong journey, right? And recognizing that you’re going to make mistakes, it’s what you do with those mistakes that help you get better in leading across difference well,
Maria Ross 09:05
and I feel like so much of this is really about empathy, because I talk about empathy being the ability to put your ego aside and understand that there’s another point of view and be open to it, but also this sense of curiosity. Curiosity is the number one trait of empathic people, and it’s because they don’t think they have all the answers. They’re going to ask you what your point of view is. So I guess, in my mind, and maybe for some of my listeners, is this more about cultural competency? Is knowing that the group is there, knowing what some of those groups norms are, and creating that checkbox for yourself, right? Like we often do this with other cultures where we say, Oh, that’s a very hierarchical culture, or that’s a culture where they you need to get to know people personally first before you engage in business. Like there’s these rules that go along with the culture. Are you saying that cultural humility is more about the curiosity to always be a. Tune to where those cultures could be evolving. And also the difference is that it’s not everybody in that culture that acts in that particular way or subscribes to those quote, unquote norms.
Dr. Joel Pérez 10:12
Yes, that’s the short answer. And the academic definition was coined or developed by two researchers travel on and Garcia, who were working with looking at doctors, physicians, and frustrated with them because they were applying what they thought worked with one culture to the other culture, and that clearly was not working, and they really wanted them to improve that patient physician dynamic, because they wanted, they knew they needed to serve their clients better within the particular demographic group they were working with. And you can’t just, it’s not a cookie cutter, right? It just take one approach and apply it to all, even though, at times we really want that to ourselves, yeah, but the reality is that it doesn’t work that way, and the way I talk about is cultural humility allows you to navigate the complexity that comes with developing organizations with a strong sense of belonging, the psychological safety that you are aspiring it to have, right?
Maria Ross 11:19
So why do leaders need this? What does it do for their organization and for their team performance?
Dr. Joel Pérez 11:26
Yeah, so the way I respond to that, because I get that question when I do workshops, and in the book, I talk about it as well, is that leaders need to develop this posture if they’re going to lead exceptionally. I believe cultural humility is an is a trait of exceptional leadership. The story I share is when I was talking with a coaching colleague of mine, I was like, Hey, Brian, I’m writing this book, and I’m really excited about helping leaders be effective. And he stopped me, he said, Joel, if the bar is effective, the bar is too low. We need exceptional leaders, because if you want to engage your talent and retain your talent, you’re going to need to navigate that complexity, because they’re bringing their identities into the workplace, into your teams. So you need to be able to navigate and lead people across difference, right? And what you think works at you know, like said, going back to what worked 10 years ago, probably won’t work now, right? And it’s getting first, getting clear about you. So self awareness is really a key aspect to developing a posture of cultural humility, which has three characteristics, getting clear on your biases, cultural self awareness and other awareness, right? The other awareness is key. So what are you doing to create a space for your team members to share more about who they are and their identities, and create that space in a way that’s going to be helpful in creating that sense of belonging, and that’s going to lead the business case is it’s going to lead to retaining your talent because they feel like they belong, right? Right? There’s that Harvard Business Review study done in 2019 that belonging, having developing a sense of belonging in your organizations, increases the retention rate of your team members 100% so there’s the ROI. But also, I believe as people, there is a call for us to be able to bridge across differences, if we’re truly going to be able to lead exceptionally,
Maria Ross 13:31
yeah, I mean, and the fact of the matter is, we have difference inherent in every team. And you know, to your point, there’s all these other quote, unquote cultures out there that are really just different groups, different subcultural groups that we might not understand, that we might not be able to relate to. But when you have a team, you’re bringing all these different personalities together. And there’s statistics. I was actually trying to find it while we were talking, there’s a startling statistic around how many Gen Zers identify as neurodivergent, yes, which is another type of culture, right? And that number is going up and not, not necessarily, because there’s more. It’s just people are removing the stigma from being able to admit that they are neurodiverse, and with that comes tremendous opportunity to harness that for your team and boost innovation and boost productivity. But it also creates things that are rife for conflict. If you don’t have that open mind, if you have a very like we need to do it this way, because this is the way we’ve always done it, or this is the way, the only way I know how. And so it’s we’re beholden to the fact that if we want to harness all the intellectual and innovative power of these teams of diverse human beings, we as the leader, need to be able to be open to their different perspectives and life experiences. And to your point, again, it doesn’t mean you. You have to, quote, unquote agree. It doesn’t mean that you have to cave into unreasonable demands. I talk about this in terms of the myths of empathy, right? But empathy requires us to sort of shut our ego down and open our eyes and our ears and be able to listen. And I notice, for people that can’t see you, you’re wearing a t shirt that says, Be curious, not judgmental, yes. And that’s really the key to empathy as well, but it’s so important for us to understand the ROI that this has on our organization, and how if we ignore it, we’re going to fall behind. Things are changing too fast. The workforce is much more diverse, much more willing to admit that they’re diverse than ever before, and we’ve got to be able to capture those various points of youth so that we make smarter business decisions. So go ahead.
Dr. Joel Pérez 15:49
No, I was gonna say thank you for naming that, because I think it’s important that you name that, that we Yes, nimble, neuro diverse is really important. I have two kids. One has ADHD. One it has dysgraphia. We talk about difference and how it shows up in the classroom, right? And then, how are they engaged in the world? I also work with seasoned professionals, aka old people, who are like Joel, help me understand the new worker, right? I don’t get it like, why do they need this? Why do they need that? Right? Well, what if you approach that with curiosity, where you’re seeking to understand, because you’re going to have to help them be successful in your organization if you’re going to create some kind of succession plan and for your organization to thrive, and that means learning about them, and you not telling them it has to be this way because it was that way for me.
Maria Ross 16:45
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And at the end of the day, if you want your goals met and your KPIs achieved, yes, you’ve got to bring people along to do that. And so you can shame and blame and disagree all you want, but that’s not actually going to help you with your goals. Yes, correct, right? So it’s about managing to the person in front of you, and yes, it takes a little bit more time, and yes, it takes a little bit more caring. And that’s the job I always, you know, I’m kind of tired of pussy footing around that, you know, tiptoeing around that for people. But it’s really about understanding that that’s your role. Now, you are not a doer. You are a leader, yes, and that means harnessing the value of everyone on your team. So how do we begin to develop a posture of cultural humility? Because there are the people who are like, Yes, I know I have a gap and I want to learn. Then there’s other people who don’t think they need it. So who do you talk to? Well, I
Dr. Joel Pérez 17:41
focus on, if you’re looking at change principles, right in the sense of, you know, you have the early adopters and the laggards. You I try to live in the middle with the folks that are truly curious. Not quite sure. I think as leaders, we’ve done a disservice to the people in the middle, because we will flock to the extremes, which then crowds the middle out where they don’t feel like they can ask questions Yes, because they have a fear of, if you want to use the term cancel, yep, or you know,
Maria Ross 18:12
or saying the wrong thing, right?
Dr. Joel Pérez 18:14
And so I talk about, as leaders, we need to create space for mistakes to be okay with that. So when I to answer your question, I believe so it starts with self awareness and self critique, which is a key to anything I believe in leadership, right? We have to be clear about who we are, yeah, in order to know how we need to improve and get better so we can lead exceptionally, right? So that requires three things, getting clear on our biases, cultural self awareness and other awareness. So that’s part of that self awareness piece that I talk about for moving from cultural competency to cultural humility. I talk about three things that are necessary. One is having a growth mindset. So looking at Carol dweck’s work, because you’re going to make mistakes, right? It’s what you do with those mistakes, right? The second is developing deep curiosity, being able to learn how to be deeply curious. And the third, which sounds simple enough, is deep listening. Right? Now, we always say we’re good listeners, and the reality is we still have a lot of work to do with listening. Yeah, right. And so working with executive and leaders on how to develop those three things is really key to start that process and to recognize and this is where leaders get frustrated. There’s not an end point, per se, because it is a process. So it always goes back to self awareness, uh huh. The second piece is redressing the power imbalances. So as you begin to learn about yourself and others that you lead, you’re going to recognize, if you want to use equity, that’s what you’re going to recognize, that there’s some unequity that needs to change, right, whether it’s pay or or just the way things are structured. So you’re going to want to re. Address those power balance that ultimately is going to lead to systemic change, but it always starts with you, the leader, but it doesn’t end with you. So I
Maria Ross 20:08
have a question for you, and this is something that comes up for me personally sometimes, but also I know when I talk to a lot of people about this, is that there are some groups when you try to enter and you try to get curious and ask the questions they can sometimes and not, not all groups. There’s no like one group. I’m just saying different people who say, that’s your job to figure it out. I’m not here to educate you. What are leaders who are trying to get curious and actively listening supposed to do with that? Well, this is
Dr. Joel Pérez 20:39
where a little bit of humble pie is necessary in that. So when people come to me because of my ethnicity and and my faith and the you know, they really want to know, for me, for me to have permission to say, Maria, thank you for the question, but I’m really tired right now. And yes, I understand you want to know, but I’m not, I’m not there. I can’t have this conversation, and for you, Maria, to say, thank you. Just know that if you’re ever able to have that conversation, I really would like to engage in the conversation and walk away the danger, not danger. The problem is that we have is what I want to press right. Help me, help me, help me, help me. And it’s yes, you need to get better. But for some people, sometimes I’m included. I don’t want to have to always educate, right? So you Maria or ex leader, need to think about okay, Joel doesn’t really want to share. What do I need to change in my own life in order? So for me to gain awareness, part of that could be talking with Joel, or part of that could be listening to podcast or putting myself in different types of communities, reading, joining a Facebook group, so I’m able to learn more about another culture, right? But for us to say it’s okay that Joel doesn’t want to share now, I may change my mind in six months. Yeah. So you could come back and say, Hey, Joel, remember that conversation we had, and I know you weren’t ready for it. Are you able to now? Yeah, that conversation. And I’ll say, well, first, thank you for thank you for recognizing and appreciating what I said to you. And yes, I’m ready to have that conversation now, right? Or I know someone who does this work, yeah, who may be able to help you where I’m not able to help you.
Maria Ross 22:20
I think that that’s the frustration for leaders who want to get curious, is that they see sometimes feel rebuffed by being curious. They feel they’re attacked for making assumptions. They’re attacked for asking the questions. And that’s the fine line there, of like, they’ve, they’ve got to, they’ve got to get the information from somewhere if they’re open to listening. So are you? Are you basically saying, Keep trying, not with the same person, but I’m saying, like, just because you get rebuffed once?
Dr. Joel Pérez 22:52
Yeah, so that’s where, that’s where it’s important for you to recognize that I may be rebuffed once. It doesn’t mean there aren’t others who are going to be willing to partner with me, right? Right? So I’m going to keep looking right? The other thing I would say, Maria, when you approach someone and say, Hey, this is coming from a place of curiosity, I truly want to know. It’s not coming from a place of judgment, right? And it’s okay for you to say, No, yeah, that’s different than you saying, Hey, tell me all about it. Yeah, tell me all about your Mexican heritage and why you eat certain food, right?
Maria Ross 23:22
Represent your entire community, right
Dr. Joel Pérez 23:24
now, yeah. And I think recognizing that, and it’s the way you ask, it’s like, anyway you talk about empathy, right? It’s being being an empath and being empathetic and putting yourself in that other person’s shoes. Yeah. And now for me, I make myself available for conversations. That’s that I don’t mind being in that lane, but I have colleagues who don’t like being in that lane, right? And they say to me, Hey, Joel, it’s so good. You’re in that lane. I have no desire. And I’ll say, Okay, thank you. Send them my way. Happy to have a conversation, exactly. And that’s and that’s the approach to take or start taking. And I, and I, I would bet that opportunities would arise for you to have conversations, so you can ask questions. If you start off the conversation with coming from a place of curiosity, it’s okay for you to say no if you want to have the conversation. But here’s
Maria Ross 24:14
what I’m wondering, yeah, I love that. I love that you’re kind of giving us some words to say when that can be uncomfortable sometimes, to to reach out and ask. And I, you know, I know this from being a woman and having, you know, men try to get me to speak for my entire gender, right? And I also know I’ve been part of groups of women that claim that men need to be more curious about how what women are going through, and then they get very vicious to any men who enter the conversation. And I’m like, no, they actually, that’s good. We need them to be part of the conversation. So it’s, it’s, I know there’s a lot of hurt, there’s a lot of frustration and resentment that builds up, and so I get. Some of those people are coming from, but I love your idea of, you know, but there’s other people. So don’t give up, don’t, you know, don’t assume all women don’t want to include men in the conversation, right? As an example, because I’ve seen that, and I I’m like, that doesn’t help any of us, for us to not have men as part of the conversation when, when you know, from a from a male female dynamic, when we that’s, that’s the gender we need to have allyship with. That’s, they’re the ones in power in many cases. And so if we’ve got open minded and curious enough people in that group, we should be helping them. We should be working with them, and we should not make them feel blamed and shamed for their even their ignorance or their you know, but to your point, having that element of humility is so important, right? There’s a great book, and I’ll put a link in the show notes to someone that I interviewed on the podcast a few years ago, America Z, who wrote a book called humbitious, which is about the marriage of humility and ambitious and being a great leader. And so much of this is about that and it and I’m constantly talking about this too. It’s a growth mindset. Is what I often say, is show me a leader who thinks they know everything and don’t, don’t, they don’t need to learn anymore or improve themselves anymore. And I will show you a leader who’s irrelevant. Yeah, because you can’t adapt, you can’t be resilient. You can’t change with the times, so to speak. So this is great this is great advice. Why did you write Dear White leader, and what do you hope readers get out of it? I wrote Dear White
Dr. Joel Pérez 26:35
leader because I wanted to write some when I felt like others should hear about cultural humility, right? You’re creating that
Maria Ross 26:40
resource for them when nobody else wants to. Else wants to talk to them. Exactly. That’s it.
Dr. Joel Pérez 26:44
And the way the book is described by my readers, so if you go to Amazon, you’ll see over, you know, 50 reviews and and generally, the way people talk about my book, from all cultures, is that Joel is walking with us and not talking to us. Yes. So in the book is a lot of my own journey that I still make mistakes. And some of the clients I work with, I talk about how I was enlightened about certain things that I thought I always knew, even growing up as a son of immigrants, Spanish was my first language doing diversity work in my undergrad, that I still have things to learn. Yeah, right. And so that’s where people say you’re talking and Joel is walking with us and not writing to us. So I wanted to write something to help leaders lead exceptionally, so that they can be the best that they can be. Because I want our world to look different and feel different. I want our organizations to look and feel different. I want our faith communities to look and feel different. So the way I talk about is it doesn’t start or end with you. It moves into your organization, yeah, whatever that organization is, and then your community. And by community, I’m talking about your family, your faith community, your volunteer organization, your neighborhood. So it’s not just about holding it in for yourself. My hope is, as you develop this posture, it’s going to bleed into every aspect of your life.
Maria Ross 28:13
Yeah, I mean, that’s exactly why I do the work around empathy. Is because we can use work as a sandbox to practice it and see see ROI from it, if we choose to. But that also impacts us in our personal lives as well, and helps us with our relationships and our community and our our family. We bring that back, and that’s how we exponentially change. So I’m also, I would also love for you to speak to this idea that because we’re asking, you know, you’re specifically targeting, not targeting, speaking to white leaders, help us understand that it doesn’t mean they need to lose their cultural identity as well. Because I get that fear a lot, and it’s, it’s like, No, we’re just trying to create a bigger pie. We’re not trying to make silence you. So how do you address that when you’re dealing with leaders who are little resistant to what you’re talking about?
Dr. Joel Pérez 29:09
Well, one is, you know, I make the case right? So whether it’s the ROI or this idea of being moving from effective to exceptional, I also talk about it is, I want leaders to understand they need to develop their they need to get a better sense of their own identities, right, whether that’s their ethnicity, gender, socioeconomic status, whatever they may be, that we have to get clear in our salient identities, and that may mean getting really clear about what it is to be white in this world. So I have an executive that I’m working with right now who is Lee. Is a leader in a nonprofit, a fairly mid sized nonprofit, and everyone he leads is either he identifies white male, everyone that he leads is either a person of color and. AND, OR, AND or female identifies as as a female. And so we were doing this work around identity. And so I gave him some resources. Right? Janet helms has a lot of work around white identity, and he engaged in that work. And he was like, oh, like, yeah, I got, I got stuff to do, like, so then we coached her on that, okay, if you recognize where you’re at along her model, and you want to move along the model, what are some things that you can do to get clear about who you are and the role it plays, or how you show up in your leadership. And what I tell white leaders, particularly those that want to just keep apologizing for being white, is I said, stop it. You only need to apologize once if you feel like you should apologize. It doesn’t mean that every time you show up in a meeting, you have to apologize. Everyone gets it right. They know you’ve already done it. You got to get comfortable in your own skin and show up to lead authentically, and part of that is recognizing who you are. It’s your superpower. So this next book I’m working working on is developing these traits to help you become an exceptional leader. One of them is leaning into your identity and seeing it as your superpower and not something to hide. Yeah, and that’s really important.
Maria Ross 31:11
I love that. I love that that that call to just have empathy for yourself as well, and, you know, give yourself some credit that you’re you’re trying to learn, you’re trying to be curious, you’re trying to be open, when, unfortunately, there’s so many people who aren’t right. So as we, as we kind of wrap up, we’ve done a lot of episodes on this show around diversity, equity and inclusion, and the data and and and creating that environment. But how? What? Maybe, what are, what are some ways or entry points, if you are a leader, maybe in your organization, either dei is being stifled right now, or it’s just not made as important of a priority. Or, you know, you’ve you’re unlearning some things as a leader as you go along. How do they start developing, like a day one, developing or week one or a month one, developing a deep sense of belonging with their team? Where are some places they can start if they listen to this podcast, read your book, and they’re like, yeah. I mean, what’s, what’s the right approach and what might be not as effective an approach? Can you give us both examples to Sure, start the conversation with your team.
Dr. Joel Pérez 32:22
Yeah. Well, I so I was working with an executive at an organization, and she they identify as a white woman, and she said, Joe, I really want to get to know about the people I lead and their identities, but I just can’t go around asking Maria, what identity? What’s your identity? What’s your ethic identity?
Maria Ross 32:41
Today we’re going to talk about identities.
Dr. Joel Pérez 32:43
Yeah, let’s don’t do that. The key thing to start is modeling it for your team, sharing more about yourself that you feel comfortable sharing, so that they can see it in action, right? And then that may be lead them to share more about themselves, right? That’s an important first step. But first asking yourself, this is something that I want to move towards. My hope is that it’s Yes, right? And then it’s about gaining more self awareness, particularly around this, and what it means to one acknowledge that I have biases. What is getting clear about my identities, all the salient identities that I hold and are friend of mine, and then getting to know the people around me that I lead is going to help and approach that with curiosity is going to help start create a culture within initially, right, your division, your department, so that you begin to model it and have these conversations where people feel like they can be who they are, because they have a sense of belonging, right? So give us an
Maria Ross 33:41
example of and I just really want to drill down to something practical, and not that you need to give people a script, but what does that look like they go into the meeting the next day? What is the vulnerability? What is the modeling sound? What could it sound like?
Dr. Joel Pérez 33:55
Yeah, so I’ll just take me for example. Okay, so if I’m in a meeting, I’m a leader. I walk in I said, Man, last night was really hard. I just want I the reason I’m sharing this with you is I want to be transparent about something that’s impacted me in my day to day, right? I have four kids, four biracial children, and one of them is struggling, in particular with how he is having a conversation with his teacher, around their strong belief around a particular culture, and this is what I’m struggling with, so it’s impacting me. I just want you to know what it is. You don’t need to tell me how to get better. I just want you to know that today I may be a little bit down in the dumps because of this, right? So you have to be vulnerability is important, but it has to be vulnerable. It has to be purpose behind your vulnerability, right? And I think that’s a that could be a way, or, Hey, let’s talk about what we did on the weekend, and what did you find most enjoyable about what you did this weekend, right? It could be I was with my family, and we had a good time, and or we attended this concert. Oh, say more about the concert you attended. Right, yeah. And that’s going to begin, I believe, to develop this ability for people to share, okay, Joel, values, who we are, yeah. One of the things that Scott shikioka talks about his book seek, is recognizing that people are more than their jobs, right? You’re going to create a culture of curiosity in your organization. Is one of the steps is understanding that people are more than their jobs, right? Yeah, and I think that’s going to begin to model for people that they can share. I mean, you got to create. I mean, I do think it’s important for there to be boundaries. I’m not saying you’re, of course, you open up your whole life to everyone, right? But little things like that, you’re leaning into sharing your own values, particularly around culture, is going to help people connect with you and say, Okay, I can. I could share a little bit more about myself if I want to, not that I have to, but
Maria Ross 35:47
if I Yeah, we talk a lot about that in terms of empathetic leadership. So coming in, getting to know people as people, creating building that trust, building building that camaraderie and comfort level, so that when things get tough, people know they can trust you. They can have each other’s backs as well, and so leaving that time in meetings to let people talk about what’s going on for them or how their weekend went, or what they’re frustrated about right now, and giving each other the context so that I’m not assuming all these things about your reactions to my ideas or my proposals or my behavior in a meeting, like, if we all know, hey, you know, Joel had a tough weekend, if you are a little short with us in a meeting, we’ll know why. Yeah, right. We can assume positive intent, yeah. And we can also decide if we want to table the conversation, right? If now’s not the best time. So that’s so much of this is intertwined with empathy, but just looking at it through a cultural lens, which I find really, really interesting.
Dr. Joel Pérez 36:51
Yeah, the one thing leaders shouldn’t do is this, where the performative piece gets in, right? Like, I have a diverse workforce and we’re doing great stuff, right, or we’re going to make it a priority and just saying it, but then there’s no action behind it, right? Right? And that’s what a lot of companies did right after the murder of George Floyd, is they put out a lot of statements. Some took steps and actually put plans in place, and we’re started executing them. But others were like, we’re just going to make a statement, right? We know it’s going to go away, right? And so that’s what you should not do as an organization, right? And why? Because I believe organizations serve a great I believe serve a greater good, right? And it’s important, if you’re going to put a statement out there, that statements are important. So let’s say, don’t like if,
Maria Ross 37:34
right, but back it up with action. You got to back
Dr. Joel Pérez 37:36
it up with action and show that you’re making progress towards whatever, you know, whatever the goal is that you set out to accomplish.
Maria Ross 37:44
Right How do you feel about the backlash to dei right now? Well, here I’m gonna say, Sure, you feel a lot of things, but yeah, I’m
Dr. Joel Pérez 37:53
gonna say something that’s a little could be a little controversial, and so I will, but I’ll put it out there is that I was really moved by something someone said in that, we do change people, not two people, right? In other words, we part. We should, when we come to change, we should be partnering with people, not just do
Maria Ross 38:11
it to people, right? Oh, we change with, not change to, yeah, okay, got it.
Dr. Joel Pérez 38:16
And that got me thinking particularly a lot of and I put myself in this category early on, when I was doing dei work, I was talking, you have to change like you just have to do this. Demographics have changed. You just got to suck it up and get it done, right? It’s the reality. Now, once they think about, hey, Maria, let’s have a conversation about why this is important, right? And I want to answer, I want to set up time for you to ask me questions. Yeah, right, because I want to for you to hear it from me and why this is important. And I think those of us who are doing a lot of dei work early on, we were RAM rotting people and not creating space for conversation, yeah, and that’s what’s done a disservice, and I think has created the pendulum to swing the other way. Now I do believe the pendulum will start swinging back, because organizations and leaders will recognize look around the room and go, Oh my gosh, there’s a lot of different people here. And whether it’s generationally, gender, sexual identity, I got to get better at this stuff, yeah, and if I want to lead this organization, well, right? Because this is who comprises the organization.
Maria Ross 39:23
Yeah, I love that. I think that’s actually very profound of this idea of understanding where forced change, again, my change management background, forced change never works, right? It’s about getting buy in, and it’s about listening, and it’s about letting people feel what they feel, and and going through it, and not, you know, shaming them for that, right, but trying to bring them along that’s much more effective in the long run. Yes, right? So I love it. This has been such goodness that you’ve shared with us today. I just want to let everyone know again, the name of the book is, Dear White leader, how to achieve organizational excellence through cultural, human. Melody, an award winning book. Fantastic. Congratulations, and we’ll have all your links in the show notes. But for anyone on the go, where’s the best place that they can find out more about you and your work? Yeah, I would
Dr. Joel Pérez 40:12
start with a boyocoaching.com a boy Oh is a P, o, y, o coaching.com a boy Oh stands for support for in Spanish, so I the way I talk about the work I do is, is I listen, bring clarity, provide support a boy, oh coaching and consulting.
Maria Ross 40:29
Love it. Love it. This has been a great conversation. Thank you so much for all your insights today. Thank you, and thank you everyone for listening to another episode of the empathy edge podcast. If you like what you heard you know what to do. Please rate, review and share it with a friend or a colleague, and until next time, please remember that cash flow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be kind. For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy. Visit the empathy edge calm. There. You can listen to past episodes, access show notes and free resources. Book me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes, insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slice Maria, never forget, empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place.
