Dr. David Bray is one of those rare humans who has done so much, across so many high-stakes arenas, that his bio almost reads like fiction. David is Chair of the Accelerator at the Loomis Council and a Distinguished Fellow with the Stimson Center. He is a Principal at LeadDoAdapt Ventures, and was previously the Executive Director of a bipartisan National Commission on R&D.
At 15 years old, he got a job offer from the U.S. government after he built a program to track the ozone layer’s deterioration – you’ll hear more of that crazy story. And his non-partisan, solutions-first DNA? It wasn’t an accident — it was baked in from childhood.
Dr. Bray helps leaders and organizations understand how geopolitics shapes technology and how technology reshapes geopolitics. Because in today’s world, you simply cannot understand one without the other.And why government should NOT be run as a business.
We cover a lot of ground, all with a bent toward how empathy and collaboration across diverse points of view lead to more creative solutions. If you care about where technology, humanity, and democracy are headed, and how empathetic leadership just might save all three, listen in.
To access the episode transcript, please scroll down below.
Listen in for…
- Why AI is neither doomsday nor utopia — and what it actually is and isn’t capable of
- The actual neuroscience behind why we see the world differently — and how laughter helps us truly listen
- Why unexpected voices at the table can change everything
- Why the government cannot and should not be run like a business!
- The science of making decisions together – how to get from “me” to “we”
- And a novel, genuinely hopeful solution for getting us back to compromise and common ground
“When humans feel stressed, doomsdayism becomes almost a fad, and I think it’s more symbolic of that than it is the reality of the situation.” — Dr. David Bray
References:
The Empathy Edge:
About Dr. David Bray, Chair of the Accelerator, Stimson Center and Principal, LeadDoAdapt Ventures:
Dr. David A. Bray is Chair of the Accelerator at the Loomis Council and a Distinguished Fellow with the Stimson Center. He is also a non-resident Distinguished Fellow with the Business Executives for National Security, and a CEO and transformation leader for different “under the radar” tech and data ventures seeking to get started in novel situations. He is Principal at LeadDoAdapt Ventures and has served in a variety of leadership roles in turbulent environments, including bioterrorism preparedness and response from 2000 to 2005. Dr. Bray previously was the Executive Director for a bipartisan National Commission on R&D, provided non-partisan leadership as a federal agency Senior Executive, worked with the U.S. Navy and Marines on improving organizational adaptability, and aided the U.S. Special Operations Command’s J5 Directorate on the challenges of countering disinformation online. He has received both the Joint Civilian Service Commendation Award and the National Intelligence Exceptional Achievement Medal. Business Insider named him one of the top “24 Americans Who Are Changing the World” under 40, and he was named a Young Global Leader by the World Economic Forum. For twelve different startups, he has served in President, CEO, Chief Strategy Officer, and Strategic Advisor roles.
Connect with David:
Stimson Center: stimson.org/ppl/david-bray
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/dbray
More from David: cxotalk.com/bio/dr-david-a-bray-distinguished-chair-of-the-accelerator-stimson-center
Connect with Maria:
Get Maria’s books: Red-Slice.com/books
Hire Maria to speak: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross
Take the LinkedIn Learning Courses! Leading with Empathy and Balancing Empathy, Accountability, and Results as a Leader
LinkedIn: Maria Ross
Instagram: @redslicemaria
Facebook: Red Slice
FULL TRANSCRIPT:
Maria Ross 00:00
Welcome to the empathy edge podcast, the show that proves why cash flow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. I’m your host, Maria Ross, I’m a speaker, author, mom, facilitator and empathy advocate. And here you’ll meet trailblazing leaders and executives, authors and experts who embrace empathy to achieve radical success. We discuss all facets of empathy, from trends and research to the future of work to how to heal societal divisions and collaborate more effectively. Our goal is to redefine success and prove that empathy isn’t just good for society. It’s great for business. Every once in a while, you sit down with a guest and think, Okay, I am genuinely not worthy. And also, where has this person been all my life? That was me with Dr David Bray, and I think you’re going to feel the same way. David is one of those rare humans who has done so much across so many high stakes arenas that his bio almost reads like fiction. David is chair of the accelerator at the Loomis Council and a distinguished fellow with the Stimson Center. He’s also a non resident distinguished fellow with the business executives for national security and a CEO and transformation leader for different under the radar tech and data ventures, those seeking to get started in novel situations. He’s principal at lead do adapt ventures, and has served in a variety of leadership roles in turbulent environments, including bioterrorism preparedness and response from 2000 to 2005 David previously was the executive director for a bipartisan National Commission on R and D, provided non partisan leadership as a federal agency, senior executive worked with the US Navy and Marines on improving organizational adaptability and aided us special operation command on countering disinformation online. He’s received both the joint civilian service commendation Award and the National Intelligence exceptional Achievement Medal. Business Insider named him one of the top 24 Americans who are changing the world under 40. And he was named a young global leader by the World Economic Forum for 12 different startups. He has served as president, CEO, Chief Strategy Officer and strategic advisor, and just to set the tone for how extraordinary this human is, at 15 years old, he got a job offer from the US government after he built a program to track the ozone layers deterioration. You’ll hear more of that crazy story and that non partisan solutions. First, DNA. It wasn’t an accident, it was baked in from childhood, which makes everything he’s done since feel almost inevitable. David helps leaders and organizations understand how geopolitics shapes technology and how technology reshapes geopolitics, because in today’s world, you simply cannot understand one without the other. We cover a lot of ground, all of it with a bent toward how empathy and collaboration across diverse points of view leads to more creative solutions. We talk about why AI is neither doomsday nor utopia, and what it actually is and isn’t capable of how diverse humans and machines, working together, make better decisions than either alone. The actual neuroscience behind why we see the world differently, and how laughter helps us truly listen, why stressed humans run straight to doomsday scenarios and conspiracy theories, and what that tells us about how to lead them, why unexpected voices at the table can change everything, and the surprising origin story of hazmat suits that prove it why government cannot and should not be run like a business, why government employees are more service oriented than many people think. We discussed the science of making decisions together and how to get from we to me. He also shared his congressional testimony on building AI that’s trustworthy, reliable and consistent with the values of a free society and free markets, and we talked about a novel, genuinely hopeful solution for getting us back to compromise and common ground. David is a bipartisan mediator, a geopolitical tech translator, a kindred spirit, and honestly, a little bit of a unicorn, if you care about where technology, humanity and democracy are headed, and how empathetic leadership just might save all three you do not want to miss this one. Take a listen. Welcome David Bray to the empathy edge Podcast. I’m so excited to have you here to talk about things that are way above my pay grade, but are going to make me sound really
Maria Ross 04:40
intelligent talking to you, and that is the landscape of
Maria Ross 04:44
both public policy and private enterprise, and how we make AI fit into them in a way that still helps us balance our values with what everyone’s trying to achieve with AI. How do we balance that? How do we balance a free market? Being good humans. I mean, I know you’re not Adam Smith, but we’ll, maybe we’ll bring him up, I don’t know, but welcome to the show.
Dr. David Bray 05:06
Well, thank you, Maria and I look forward to exploring the space with you, because we definitely live in interesting times.
Maria Ross 05:11
Yes, that’s an understatement. So we heard your bio, but fill in the blanks for us a little bit. Tell us a little bit more about your story. Dig into, how did you even get into the work that you’re doing now? I mean, did something seminal happen to you when you were seven? I don’t know, but
Dr. David Bray 05:27
Well, I did fall in my high chair, apparently at age one, according to my parents, that may or may not have made it, but the die was cast. The die was caster. So I think I would actually my parents. My mom was school teacher. My father was a Methodist menace. She was Catholic. To marry him, he was going to be a mother, and unless she promised to leave the Catholic Church, she was going to be facing the challenges of having to give up her faith. And so people ask, How did I become non partisan? It’s like I was kind of born this way. My father, when I when I was in elementary school, his skill sets were healing fragmented congregations and doing capital planning exercises. So he would inherit a broken church that had to be brought together. For some reason, he’d use narrative. He’d use other exercises to get them to working together again, get them to do a new building addition, and then the reward was three or four years later, you get another church. And for a while, he was assigned to a church that was jointly Methodist, Presbyterian, Episcopalian at the same time. So yeah, you know, that taught me sort of empathy for people that are practicing different faiths, different rituals. But then my rebellion, and I think this is really what was seminal, is I wanted to figure out who he worked for. And so on my own, I had been given a personal computer from our grandfather. He gave it to each of his grandkids, took it apart, put it back together, taught my self assembly and C and other coding languages. And when I was about 1314, produced a computer simulation of the ozone layer deterioration effect, because that was big in the topic in the early 90s. Yeah. And all of a sudden the government’s like, we have a job for you. I got hired by the government. Was 15, and the rest is history. Oh my gosh, at 15, yes, I had to get a large permit because I was underage in Virginia. Later, after working at a department energy facility that was doing computer simulations of electron beams, we moved up to DC, and when I was 17, I got called down to Principal’s office four individuals in suits say we went off for your job. It’s gonna be, I was gonna ask
Maria Ross 07:17
if that’s how it happened. Like, does it have, like, that’s what the movies always show, right? It was, but
Dr. David Bray 07:20
it wasn’t. You know, everyone thinks that I somehow did something wrong. I was like, no, actually, I was just trying to figure out who my dad worked for. So I was doing natural simulations of visual simulations of natural events. And so they said it’s gonna involve small satellites. And the next thing I know, it was basically, I can tell you now, this was the mid 90s. It was tied to the Ballistic Missile Defense Organization and trying to figure out how we use some of their satellites to actually do modeling of natural events on earth, like, say, a volcanic eruption or a flooding forest fire. I actually did a project that was actually trying to predict where forest fires might go using satellites.
Maria Ross 07:53
Wow. So in a previous incarnation of my business, I was solely devoted to brand strategy, and one of my clients was a company that had nano satellites that were using it to try to predict natural disasters and also when geopolitical conflict would occur, helping organizations re navigate their shipping routes or, you know, and just doing it with an eye at like, how can we make this good for humanity? And I always really admired them for that. And it sounds like you have a lot of that, both and thinking in the work that you do. So what would for the lay person, what would you say is the work that you do now?
Dr. David Bray 08:29
So the work I do now. I’m fortunate enough having believe it again, because I started working with government when I was 15, after several years as a senior National Intelligence Service executive. I’m fortunate enough to be retired, but of course, that’s too early in my career to retire, so I’m really I have my own S corp that’s lead to adapt ventures, which is working with companies on understanding how technology impacts geopolitics. Geopolitics impacts technology, and then how do they navigate that? And that’s everything from biotech companies to cyber AI quantum along the way during my government service, I got asked, this was 2012 2013 the principal deputy director of national intelligence at the time Stephanie O’Sullivan, she invited me to have lunch, and I was like, oh, something’s up. And she said, Would you like to be the one non partisan with six Democrats, six Republicans, including two senators and two representatives from both sides of the aisle, reviewing all research and development programs of US intelligence and US intelligence and classified ones, and of course, at least say yes. As I was leaving our office, after we had had lunch and everything like that, there’s been three senior executives, three not work out. You’re number four. Don’t screw it up. And so the good news is using empathy, which I know we’ll dive into, I was able to figure out why previous senior executives had not worked out why both of the AI were not talking to each other, why they weren’t working together well, and a year and a half later, the Commission released four classified reports, one unclassified report, and in the 12 years, 13 years since, more than 75% of our recommendations have been implemented and not rolled back.
Maria Ross 09:57
Wow. So I want to talk a little bit about that, because. Obviously the intersection of my work empathy and the phrase that you keep using, which is non partisan, that’s not a lot of what we’re seeing in governments across the world these days. So what were some of your secrets? What was your what were your bag of tricks that you brought to the table in trying to get these people that really had trouble seeing the other’s point of view at the same table to solve the same problem.
Dr. David Bray 10:25
So I think the first step is exactly what you said, which is get them at the same table, because if you meet with them individually, they’re going to have expectations. They’re going to ask you to do things, and I guarantee you you’re not going to make them happy. But if you have them at the table together, and you say, how do we go forward together? Then it’s a back and forth conversation. And in fact, that was one of my early learnings with the Commission. Was partly the part of the problem was past executives have met with them separately. And so I first met with the two co chairs of the commission, and then the next step from there was to then meet with all the commissioners. But that was one step, because the commission was sort of like the where we want to go with the Commission, the for the review of the rd efforts of the intelligence community. Then I had to flip the script, because I also had the luxury. I guess I’m going to use luxury in quotation marks. So the commission itself was but was staffed by about 120 150 different people that were assigned to me, but their performance review and their pay was being done by a different agency. So I had to, sort of, how do I steer 120 150 people across the intelligence being to get things done? Yeah, and yeah, that was going to be pretty challenging. So yeah, so it really is. And so I parachuted, and I said, where do we want to go together? And so that was part of what I was working on, was, how do we get them to actually
Maria Ross 11:39
work together, right? And also, it sounds like a little bit of a conversation around, what are we all here for? What can we all agree to first? And let’s start from there, right? Yeah. Why are
Dr. David Bray 11:49
we here? Yeah? Quote about us, I always like to ask, why are we here, yeah, and I do intentionally open ended question, because I’ll give you another example in my career. So after the commission, I opted to go to the Federal Communications Commission, where they’d had nine CEOs in eight years, which is always a great sign for CEO number 10 that things are just great with that amount of turnover, awesome. And they also had two advanced persistent threats that were present in their IT systems before my arrival, that were still there, right? So as I told my wife, I couldn’t even trust the IT systems I was inheriting, and that’s probably why I was there. Was to try and clean it up. And so with that amount of turnover, I realized I had to make sure this was a, we challenge a we set a solution too. Yeah, 100% Yeah. Am I still going to be here in six months, for example? Right? So I it was about two weeks in I did a town hall where it was with the people that I can meet with in person, plus virtually, because I had about 700 people. 100 people, and I said, where do we want to go? And it was intentionally an open ended question that for only one hour I was listening. I mean, we could be more than an hour, but it was that for that hour I was listening to them, and I knew people were kind of shy, so I called on someone who I knew was an extrovert, and say, Bill, how do you think we should go? And so I got them, sort of bringing ideas as to what we could do together to move forward. And then at the end, I was about to wrap up, and I said, and someone raised their hand and said, I have a beef. I said, could you tell me more? And the person said it happened 17 years ago. I just arrived two weeks ago, and I said, Okay, tell me more. And so they told me it was some dispute between contractors and government and everything like that. And at the end, after listening to person, I said, Thank you for sharing. How do you think we can take that lesson and use it for what we want to do going forward? And so I often think that a empathetic leader, the job is to make sure people are heard, and then invite them to translate how they’re feeling, how they’re seeing things to be problem solvers. So how do you switch from being a problem holder or problem admirer to being a problem solver, and that’s good empathy?
Maria Ross 13:44
Yeah, absolutely. It’s not about solving everybody’s problems and taking them on yourself. And that’s the thing I try to work with leaders on, is there’s a reason you’re burning out in the name of being an empathetic leader, because what you’re actually doing is not empathy. That’s about blurring boundaries. That’s about, you know, trying to people please, whatever it is. But I love that, and it’s part of empathy. Is the coaching. It’s what do you actually need me to do in this moment? Like, obviously that person as a great example needed to be heard and probably stuck onto that thing for 17 years because no one bothered to listen to his whole story, right? And so just giving somebody the space, and I know leaders go, but that, you know they’re still going to have the problem, well, maybe in that moment, that’s all they want. They just want to be seen. And the fact that you then turned it around, of like, what can we learn from your experience, so that we can move forward? You didn’t let him dwell in the past of who was to blame and who messed up and who did all of this, but it’s like, okay, what can we take from that? Because that’s really valuable that you shared that with us. We don’t want to make that mistake again. How can we learn from that to move forward? And then that gets them focused on a forward thinking mindset of versus wallowing. But the longer you ignore someone like that. That the more years they hold on to something like that.
Dr. David Bray 15:03
Oh, I mean, I often say people miss the fact that there’s plenty of people who want to bring about positive outcomes in government. They’ve just been banging their head against the wall, and nobody listening to them for so long that they lose what brought them there in the first place. And so a good leader. And this is true not just in government. This is also true for legacy organizations. Create the space where they refined what I say, what brings them joy? Yeah, there’s spark. Yeah, there’s spark that intrinsically motivates them to move forward. Because if you can do that, then they’re going to be intrinsically motivated to be problem solvers and actually address things. And actually, that’s what you want in any organization. That’s the type of excellence, and it only comes when you
Maria Ross 15:42
find joy Well, and that’s so joy is the fifth pillar of my five pillar framework for being an effective and empathetic leader, and that’s exactly why it’s the secret sauce of you know, I’m doing all the right things. I’m taking care of myself, I’m evaluating how I show up in the conversation. I’m providing clarity, I’m providing decisiveness, I’m being supportive. I’m not lowering the bar. I’m actually helping people reach the bar. But the missing piece in there, when I was initially writing the second book, was what, there’s something else missing, and it was joy, and it was really getting people to own their work and own how they show up. And you do that by giving people autonomy. You do it by listening to them and seeing them and valuing them, and then people will, you know, go to the ends of the earth for you. So you brought up an interesting point, because I think that there is a misperception, and I’d love for you to address it. Having worked with government officials for a really long time, there’s a perception that they lack empathy, all of them, right? And I know there are some that do. But what’s been your experience? Is it just the they’re just frustrated and beat down? Is it? Do they some of them come clear eyed, full hearts to the table, and then it’s beaten out of them. Like, what’s your assessment of the good that people actually are trying to do, and not just in it for themselves? In government, right? And I know you can’t speak for every government official you’ve ever worked with, or every Congress person, but has your experience been something a little bit more nuanced than what people think of?
Dr. David Bray 17:11
Oh, most definitely. I think my wife said this once. She said, I know people think that there must be fat cats in DC, but if you look at the amount of hours. These people are working for that for no additional pay. They’re pretty thin cats. So, you know, I would say most people are attracted to a role of service, and it really is a role of service, because they find that resonates with their identity to be of service. You know, they’re not doing it for any other reason, and I do think especially on the career level, or when someone comes in a career job, there’s that there’s also people that come in in short term hires that they, you know, some either presidential figure or some Governor figure said, you know, here’s your chance to actually work for two or three years before you go on and do something else. I think the two challenges I have about practicing empathy is one, especially if you work at the national level, you are so removed from direct outcomes that you may want to affect things that impact someone directly, but it’s usually through something that happens at the local, community level. And so I often try to remind people, why are we here? And get back to
Maria Ross 18:18
it right? And what role do you play in it? Correct, exactly, even if you’re even if you’re back office. Yes, it matters, right?
Dr. David Bray 18:26
Or did I jokingly say even if you make a difference in someone’s life three to five years from now, and they never know about it, you still make a difference in their life. Just saying so, right, right? I think the other challenge is, you know, because I often hear people say, well, government should run more like a business. I’m like, show me a business where you have 535, members of the board who each have their own different agendas. That may be not the same thing as the rest of the organization, once you show me that also would operate in a fiscal year without passing a budget for 10 months before they pass a budget. And so I think that sort of fits and starts in the big P politics. You know, again, most people in government are not political. They’re just there to get the job done. But it makes it challenging when you one, have to forecast your budget three years in advance, and then two, when it finally comes to the time you don’t have your budget, right? I do try to remind people that even when the nation was founded, there’s the Federalist Papers number 51 where they say, What is government but the greatest reflection of all humanity. If all men and women were angels, no government would be necessary. They recognize that the way to do checks and balances. They actually say this line. They wanted ambition to counter ambition, so with political figures. And I’m non partisan, but I work, you know, I’ve worked with people on both side of the aisle. They are ambitious because you have to be ambitious to take on a job that is public facing, that’s got low pay and all that sort of stuff. You know, what’s motivating you is not the pay or anything like that, right? So, yes, don’t be surprised if political actors are ambitious, but that’s partly why we elected them there in the first place, in some sense, right?
Maria Ross 19:55
And I actually, I had an interview with Dr Claire York, who’s done a lot of work globally with different. Governments. And talking about our conversation was about the role of empathy in politics and why it actually is required for us to accomplish great things. And she talked about the need for systemic change to create a political environment, a political a government system that actually attracts the kinds of people with the kinds of values that we want in those positions, and what’s happened? It’s a system that, like you said, it beats people down, it gets them really frustrated. And so the problem isn’t necessarily the people who are in those roles. The problem is, how do we create a system that attracts the caliber of the people that we want? And I just thought that was very profound of just, yeah, like everything else, it’s systemic, right?
Dr. David Bray 20:42
Oh, it’s system. And I would even, I mean, what I love, what you shared about that insight. I’ll go even further on the balcony and say it was 2009 I was in a classified environment at the time, and we were observing trends. And there was a colleague who said social media will be the best thing for free societies, because we’ll bring transparency. Everyone will know what’s going on. And I said,
Maria Ross 21:02
Yes, And
Dr. David Bray 21:03
Yes, and, two things, one, that’s assuming everything that’s out there is exactly what’s going on, versus the spin, right? But two, I think free societies, Representative societies, work best when people can compromise. And the trouble with social media, not that I say we shouldn’t have social media, but the trouble is they can no longer compromise in the sense that, in the past, before social media, politicians could go home to their constituents and say, look at the victory I won for you. And they would leave out, here’s what I had to give up, or here’s what I compromised to get it right. But oh, on social media, if they say, look at the victory I got you, it’s not even the opponent, opposing party. It’s members of their own party that say, but you compromise with them, or you gave up the following thing. And if you elect me, I won’t ever compromise. And so we see this happening since 2009 which is the middle, can no longer be effective and cross party line, points votes are now zero. Yeah, partly because, you know, partly because of social media. But also, you know, they can’t even hang out without someone taking a picture of this person from this side was hanging out with this other person from the other side, what could
Maria Ross 22:04
they be doing? It’s so ridiculous. I actually have really because I try to moderate my social media diet, because it causes me high blood pressure, but it actually has warmed to my heart the people that have dug up from the archives the videos of presidents and their families of different parties at a ball game together, or touring the White House together, or doing all these things together. And it’s like, when can we get back to that? And I really do believe we may things may get worse before they get better, but people are longing for that, even if you know, I mean, I think about the politicians in the past that I didn’t necessarily agree with their stances on things, and I’m like, wow, I wish you know he or she was the worst thing I had to worry about right now. But to your point, I think that’s really interesting. Do you see any optimism of that repairing itself? So I think you’re
Dr. David Bray 22:54
right that eventually the system will get better. It is worth knowing. And I say this just to give context that our own country, when it was founded, you had John Adams as a sitting president and Thomas Jefferson as his vice president. Thomas Jefferson hired a political hit man to claim that his boss, John Adams, wanted to go to war with France. That was completely untrue, but he did that as his vice president. Yeah, and then as a sitting president, John Adams is writing op eds, claiming that his vice president, Thomas Jefferson is the devil. This, ladies and gentlemen, was not new. It’s not new. But what’s interesting is, why did we have this period after in the 1950s on where, like you said, they hung out with each other. And I would submit they had all been through the crucible of world war two together. Yeah. Now I would prefer not to have a war to Exactly, yeah. And so one of the things I’ve been trying to proactive, and it actually pulls well on both sides. Again, I’m not a politician, right? One or two years of service for all of us, and you can pick what it is. It doesn’t have to be military service, whatever it is, and you can opt out of it if you don’t want to. But, you know, if we can have and it can be at any age, it doesn’t have to be high school, doesn’t have to be college, it can even be, could be later, when you’re semi retired, or take a, you know, take a sabbatical. But that way, when you meet a stranger on the street, one of the first things you can ask them is, what was your year of service? And then there’s the conversation you can have, even if you see the world differently, even if you have different political views, using, you know, part of the luxury the United States, we don’t ask much of you, but that’s also a challenge, because the only things we really ask of you is to occasionally serve on a jury and pay your taxes, right? Neither which people find a lot of joy in. So what is all have that you bring joy in your year of service, that you can then identify with a stranger?
Maria Ross 24:32
Oh, that would be amazing. That would be amazing. But I already can hear the arguments from one of the other sides.
Dr. David Bray 24:40
I can make it voluntary and make it is voluntary. Yeah, you know, if you don’t want to, I love it.
Maria Ross 24:45
I love it. So I want to shift a little bit to the whole because I know you’ve done a lot of work around artificial intelligence, and you know, as you mentioned earlier, helping organizations, helping governments navigate policy around artificial intelligence. And it kind of goes back to. To when we were talking about social media, and there’s so much potential and promise, and then it’s about which actors get access to control the narrative with those different platforms, right and we’re seeing that play out in real time right now. So what’s your take on first of all, what’s your take on the future arc of artificial intelligence in terms of how realistic are people’s both super optimistic views and doomsday views, right?
Dr. David Bray 25:30
So I get shot at from both sides, because I say it’s more nuanced,
Maria Ross 25:33
because you’re non partisan yes or non
Dr. David Bray 25:34
partisan, and apparently with AI in the same way, you know, artificial general general intelligence is not right around the corner, in my opinion. You know, we will see. We can, we can revisit this in a year or two. Now, also, keeping in mind, AI has been around since late 1950s it’s been in different flavors, and clearly, we’ve come a long way since. But the current version generative AI is actually based on algorithms that go back to the late 80s, early 90s. We just couldn’t do them one because we didn’t have the intense graphical processing units that we have now, right the computing power back in time, we didn’t have the data. And the data came from all of us using the internet. And I sometimes say, When did you get your check in the mail for the data you contributed to make generative AI possible? And I remind people, do you remember this thing called Napster in the 90s? But yeah, yeah, that makes certain tech companies look at me askance and but do in you know generative AI is essentially taking lots of data and essentially throwing it against a multi dimensional wall. They’re trying to map it on multiple dimensions. We’re talking like 10s of 1000s, if not hundreds of 1000s of dimensions, and figure out the distance between tokens. That’s great, but it’s not reasoning. It looks very interesting. It looks very interesting, but there’s nothing about this. Is actually reasoning about the world. It’s not building a worldview. And we’re finally seeing, I’ve been saying this for the last few years, which is, it’s very interesting, and it may be eventually how we interface with machines better. But if we want to actually have reasoning, it’s going to take other take other things. So So I don’t think you know, I realize some companies are trying to sell you as a human replacement. It’s more a human augmentation.
Maria Ross 27:12
I yes this. I keep bringing up this study every time this topic comes up. My listeners are probably sick of it, but MIT came out with a study last year about the five human skills that augment the value of AI that and that AI currently can’t replace, right? And they’re all the things you would suspect, right? Empathy, ethics, judgment, perception, even connecting through feelings, right? Right? So AI can simulate that, but it can’t
Dr. David Bray 27:36
actually do it, yeah, and that’s what generative is. And I would also say so my after responding to events in 911 and bioterrorism and everything like that, I was motivated to get a PhD in a business school, and it looked at what was called collective intelligence. When do more humans and machines make better decisions, and when do more humans and more machines make worse decisions? And we know from this was 2005 2006 we know from the science of collective intelligence, more humans and machines make better decisions if there is active listening, both on the human to machine parts equal turnkey in the conversation. And interesting enough, because this might be related to vectors one and two, a higher ratio of women to men. I mean, we’ve been saying that, and you look at the company CEOs, oh, wait. Oh, wait, no. Anyway, I know, but I raise that because there is a so there is an actual science to making better decisions with humans and machines together, as opposed to an either or. And I think the AI companies would probably be due to remember that science. I don’t know. I realize, you know, they’re out to sell your product, right? The other thing that I think is on the Doom side, I’m less skeptical of the Doom one, because if any of these things start to get concerning, electromagnetic pulse will take care of it pretty well. But then separately, I actually think some of the real hard problems we have, like, how do we get through climate change? Yeah, that’s only going to be done with a combination of humans plus bio plus AI. We’re going to have to have synthetic bacteria that can actually pull methane and carbon dioxide from the environment right ground. And I know there’s some people are like, AI and bios a bioterrorism weapon. I’m like, Okay, I’ve done five years of bioterrorism response. Knowledge of something is different than experience in and so just because I can tell you how to do I don’t know a liver transplant does not mean either you or I are ready to do a liver transplant, or you actually have to practice a lot. And so this, like this idea that somehow AI is going to tell people how to make really bad things in their basement. I’m like, it might give you the information, but unless we start seeing simulators for BSL three biosafety level three facilities, right? They’re not, you know, and so it’s more I do think if you go back to 1890s where there’s rapid technological progress, there was also the cult of seances and doomsay ism as well, and the social death, I think when humans feel stressed, doomsay ism becomes almost a fad, and I think it’s more it’s more symbolic of that than it is the reality of the situation.
Maria Ross 29:57
Oh, I love that quote, When
Maria Ross 29:58
humans feel stressed, the doomsday scenario is comforting, yeah.
Dr. David Bray 30:05
And I would also say another factor on this, and this is also for empathy, and this may be how I knew later in life to leadership. So conspiracy theories, we humans reach for conspiracy theories when we feel like the world is too random. And so when I was involved with the response to 911 and the anthrax events, there were plenty of conspiracy theories that we had done it to ourselves. That was a false flag operation, everything right? Then I’m like, No, that’s not true. Now, at the time, there wasn’t social media, so it wasn’t able to take root, but it required me to reflect, why am I serving to try and stop bioterrorism when there’s people out there that some think we’re doing it to ourselves. And it really helped me understand that when people are anxious, when people are angry, a consistency theory makes them feel like they’re in control, right? And so we’re now in a world where the internet, media and AI has been ever for people to find conspiracy theories, and maybe two of them are true, I don’t know, but I think a lot of people are reaching it because they’re angry.
Maria Ross 31:02
Because they’re anxious. Yeah, absolutely. I think that’s a great observation. Talk to me a little bit about the role of, you know, when we talk about empathetic leadership and active listening and curiosity, you know, it’s not necessarily things like cyber security we think of, or bioterrorism, or initiatives like that. Can you educate us on the real need for those human connection skills? We know that empathy has been identified by several groups and several bits of research as the most important skill for leaders to have in the 21st Century, and I subscribe it’s because our problems are so complex, we need to be able to work together and hear viewpoints from all different areas in order to solve these problems. What? What is your take on that? Where have you seen empathetic leaders shine in those conversations that you’ve had at those big tables, those important places? Is it? Is it noticeable? Do people sense there’s someone, there’s a different presence in the room? Does it create followership? What? What’s I’m going to leave it kind of open ended for you to just talk about that experience of being at those tables and in those spaces.
Dr. David Bray 32:13
So I think the real value of empathy is,
Dr. David Bray 32:17
as you said, there is value to different perspectives on Trump, given, in fact, that’s been shown that experts are actually by experts with what’s called expense people who don’t have expertise at all. And I’ll give you an example, they were trying to find a way to create a better hazmat suit.
Maria Ross 32:37
So David, I’m curious to know, given the tables at which you’ve sat, you know, solving these big problems, these meaty problems of cybersecurity, bioterrorism. You mentioned your work you did after 911 public policy. Where have you seen empathetic leadership shine? You know, the ability to be curious, the ability to find common ground and actively listen. And was that palpable in in the rooms and at the tables where you were, where it created a sense of of camaraderie. It created a sense of followership for those leaders. Can you? Can you talk a little bit about that?
Dr. David Bray 33:13
Sure, yes. So I would say, you know, a good, empathetic leader creates a sense of both purpose for everybody there, even if they’re coming at the table with different agendas, different ways of seeing the world, and then a little bit of humility too. Saying, I don’t have all the answers. Let’s explore this space together. I also think humor is useful, and in fact, research shows that if I can get you to laugh, you’re going to get a little bit of a dopamine hit, and that’s going to be enough that if you need to update your worldview, you’re more likely to because now you’ve got a dopamine hit. So there’s actually a neuroscience behind laughter, and that’s why we laugh at jokes when we finally get to the punchline and things like that. The other thing that I think is useful is there is just about two decades worth of research, one on collective intelligence, which we talked about, that actually experts are actually outperformed by experts and naive participants, which means that you don’t see the world the same way the experts do, and actually you do better as a result with that mixture. And an example would be hazmat suits. They were trying to figure out who could build the best hazmat suit, and the winner was actually someone who came from wedding dresses, because, you know, obviously had no experience in bio threats, but was really good at figuring out how to make material lighter and actually how to assemble it appropriately. The other thing, though, is the research over the last two decades have shown if I play a game of almost like mine sweeper, I’m flipping over cards. Sometimes, if I flip over cards, I get something good. Sometimes I get something bad. If I’m not careful, I flip over something it’s the end of the game, and they ask people voluntarily to play the game as long as they want. They find that some people play the game just a little bit before they stop, and there’s other people that play the game exhaustively. The people that play the game a little bit report the emotions when they turn over something good as being much higher and as well as the emotions when they turn over something bad as being much lower than those that do more exhaustive searching, more exhaustive search. Watching your emotions are more even keeled, so to speak, whereas you feel higher highs and lower lows if you’re short. Turns out that actually maps to political ways of seeing the world, that people who are more conservative on the political spectrum are less likely to turn over a lot of cards and report higher emotions, whereas those who do a more exhaustive search tend to be more liberal. And you can imagine in human history, there are probably times when it was useful to be the one that explores and goes over the hill, and there would be other times when you went over the hill, there was another group that was about to kill you, or small box or whatever. And so understanding that there actually may be some neuroscience behind the ways we see the world. Because what’s even more interesting is for the people who are are more exploratory, they want the facts first and then the narrative, the story arc second. Whereas the people that are more conservative and they’re flipping over cars, they want the story arc first. They want the narrative right first and then the facts second. And so oftentimes I see both sides of style aisle shouting each other, where one wants to get the story right, the other one wants to get the facts right. It’s like, okay, let’s step back. You are both asking for funnily different things, and that’s okay. Let’s see how we can do this both together.
Maria Ross 36:09
Yeah. So good, so good. So anything you can reveal you’re working on right now, sure.
Dr. David Bray 36:16
So I will not name the name of the company, but this was about two weeks after the US election, they called me and they said, Our board is 55% on one side of the aisle, 45% other side of the aisle. Clearly, somebody, you’re a non partisan. We’d like you to help us understand what the new administration the new Congress. What does this mean for issues involving healthcare, defense, FinTech, energy, and so they wanted to note that 10 to 15 year vision. And I said, Well, one thing you need to recognize is often in politics, especially US politics, because we are short term in our election cycles. People don’t have a 10 to 15 year vision. However, you can engage them in events. You can engage them in actually writing a report. You can actually ask for their inputs as you write a report, you can publish support, and that itself will actually help you figure out what they care about and what they care about and what they’re thinking about, and you’re actually helping them build a strategy. And again, if you make it public, then it’s useful for everybody. So I’ve already done that for healthcare and the future of healthcare. I’ve already done it for defense. And what we’re hoping to do now is as you sort of led with what are more reliable, responsible, trustworthy approaches to AI. And again, not saying that generative AI might not get there, but there’s other tools in the toolkit too, and that are other forms of AI that if we can help educate policy makers and communities to understand that there’s there’s not just hammers, but you also can have screwdrivers and wrenches, and they may be better for the task at hand. Understanding that inventory of AI, in my opinion, will help us be better as communities and also be better as companies.
Maria Ross 37:43
Amazing, amazing. I could talk to you another three hours, but I’m going to save my listeners ears from me and you just yammering on about all this stuff we’re geeking out about. We will have all your links in the show notes. But for anyone that’s on the go right now or commuting, can you just audibly share a good place that they can find out more about you and your work.
Dr. David Bray 38:03
Sure, probably the best is on LinkedIn. I’m on LinkedIn. If you search for David Bray, both with lead do adopt ventures and also the Simpson center, if you want to connect with me, however, please reference the empathy podcast, and even more importantly, use the word banana. And I know that sounds kind of random. No, I love it. There’s lots of bots out there that will say, Hey, I met you, David. I’m like, did you? I don’t know. So this is a way to verify at least some human intentionality on the part of the purpose invite.
Maria Ross 38:32
We got to use our human ingenuity to circumvent the issues we’re having. Yeah, that’s my public service announcement. Always, when people, when guests, invite folks to connect with them on LinkedIn is, please tell him where you heard him and so he doesn’t think you’re trying to sell him something, right? Also, that you’re not a bot. So thank you so much for your time and your insights today. Your work is so important, and I love that you started this work at such a young age, so we can reap more the benefits of your thinking and the method by which you try to help bring people together. So thank you.
Dr. David Bray 39:03
Well, thank you as well, Maria for doing this, and thank you for your leadership, because we do need more empathetic leaders everywhere in the world. And thank
Maria Ross 39:11
you everyone for listening to another episode of the empathy edge podcast. If you like what you heard, you know what to do. Please rate, review and share it with a friend or a colleague. And until next time, please remember that cash flow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Take care and be kind. For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy. Visit the empathy edge calm. There. You can listen to past episodes, access show notes and free resources. Book me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes, insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slice. Maria, never forget, empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place.
