Welcome to Courage to Advance, hosted by Kim Bohr and brought to you by SparkEffect, in partnership with The Empathy Edge.
Tune in to our subseries every 3rd Thursday, right here on The Empathy Edge! Or check us out at www.CourageToAdvancePodcast.com.
In today’s uncertain job market, what separates endless applications from landing your ideal role? Kim Bohr sits down with Tim Sprangers, CEO of Orin Rice, a Seattle-based sales recruiting firm, to uncover the levers you can actually control in the process. With over a decade of experience connecting top talent with leading companies, Tim offers practical guidance for navigating what he calls the current “uncertain market” – where both employers and candidates hesitate to make moves.
This insightful conversation explores how leaders can approach their job search like a sales cycle, effectively pivot between industries or functions, and simplify their value proposition to stand out. Tim shares what recruiters actually look for in resumes, why networking before you need it pays dividends, and how to determine if a recruiting partner truly adds value.
Whether you’re hiring talent or seeking new opportunities yourself, discover strategies for gaining a talent advantage even in challenging market conditions. Learn to position yourself effectively, leverage your network strategically, and approach career transitions with confidence.
To access the episode transcript, please scroll down below.
Key Takeaways:
- We’re in an “uncertain market” where both employers and candidates hesitate to make moves
- Track your job search like a sales cycle to identify exactly where you’re falling short
- When pivoting careers, focus on either transferable skills or industry knowledge
- Make your resume content-rich with measurable achievements rather than fancy formatting
- Network proactively before you need it, and help others without expectation
- Your questions during interviews often matter more than your answers
- “If a seven-year-old can’t understand what you do, it’s overcomplicated.”
“You can control the input. Sometimes you can’t control the output… you’ve got to control the things that you can, which is your effort and your energy and the time that you’re putting into it.” — Tim Sprangers
About Tim Sprangers: Tim Sprangers is the CEO of Orin Rice, a Seattle-based sales recruiting firm connecting top professionals with leading Pacific Northwest companies. With over a decade in recruitment, Tim’s quality-over-quantity approach ensures employers and candidates find the right fit through understanding each party’s needs. Orin Rice donates a portion of profits to nonprofits, including FARE and Treehouse.
About SparkEffect:
SparkEffect partners with organizations to unlock the full potential of their greatest asset: their people. Through their tailored assessments and expert coaching at every level, SparkEffect helps organizations manage change, sustain growth, and chart a path to a brighter future.
Go to sparkeffect.com/edge now and download your complimentary Professional and Organizational Alignment Review today.
Connect with Tim Sprangers:
Website: https://www.orinrice.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/timsprangers/
Connect with Kim Bohr and SparkEffect
SparkEffect: sparkeffect.com
Courage to Advance recording and resources:
sparkeffect.com/courage-to-advance-podcast
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/company/sparkeffect
LinkedIn for Kim Bohr: linkedin.com/in/kimbohr
Connect with Maria:
Learn more about Maria’s work and books: Red-Slice.com
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FULL TRANSCRIPT:
Welcome to the Empathy Edge podcast. The show that proves why cash flow, creativity, and compassion are not mutually exclusive. I’m your host, Maria Ross. I’m a speaker, author, mom, facilitator, and empathy advocate. And here you’ll meet trailblazing leaders and executives, authors, and experts who embrace empathy to achieve radical success. We discuss all facets of empathy, from trends and research to the future of work, to how to heal societal divisions and collaborate more effectively. Our goal is to redefine success and prove that empathy isn’t just good for society, it’s great for business.
Kim Bohr 00:44
In today’s uncertain job market, the difference between endless applications and landing your idea role isn’t luck. It’s understanding what leverage you actually can control in the process. I’m Kim Boer, president and COO of Spark Effect, and in this episode of Courage to Advance, we’re pulling back the curtain on what really works with recruiting expert Tim Springers. Tim is the CEO and founder of Oren Rice, a Seattle-based sales recruiting firm that specializes in connecting top sales professionals with leading companies in the Pacific Northwest. With a background in business-to-business sales, Tim has over a decade of experience helping both local and global brands develop and implement effective recruitment strategies. His approach emphasizes a quality over quantity methodology, ensuring that both employers and candidates find the right fit through a thorough understanding of each party’s needs and goals. Tim, welcome to Courage to Advance podcast. I’m so excited you’re here with us today.
Tim Springers 01:43
Thanks, Kim, for having me.
Kim Bohr 01:45
So let’s start off by telling the audience a little bit about what brought you into being a recruiter.
Tim Springers 01:51
It was probably 11 years ago that I started the business and what was the catalyst was I had a different recruiting company that had approached me and wanted me to help them start a vertical. And it was at that point where I sat back and thought, if they think I have the skill set to do this, maybe I should just go for it. And so after spending some time in some big sales organizations, and also being in a startup, I thought, if I don’t do it now, when am I going to do it? So 11 years ago, my wife and I took the jump and never looked back.
Kim Bohr 02:24
And the company, as we said earlier, is Oren Rice, which I know has a personal story for you.
Tim Springers 02:33
It’s actually the road I grew up on. So in Eastern Washington, it connected really small orange with really small rice, which is probably at its peak population of 95 people combined.
Kim Bohr 02:45
I love that. It gives a little bit more of a personal reason for your roots. So, you know, we know the job market is really interesting right now. There’s a lot of uncertainty. And I think that’s one of the reasons I was so excited to talk with you just to really get from your perspective, what should people be thinking about, especially if they’re thinking about making a transition or if they’ve been impacted. And so if you, I really love for us to start, you know, kind of talking about the current job market from the lens that you see it. And then, you know, just kind of giving people a sense of what that looks like.
Tim Springers 03:18
I mean, there’s really three different kind of markets. There’s the employer market where the employers have the power. There is the employee market, which we just went through at the beginning in the tail end of COVID. And then you have the uncertain market, which we’re in right now. And so the worst market to be in is the uncertain because it cripples a lot of people. Businesses as well as people don’t know if they should be making a hire, or employees don’t know if they should be making a move. Because if they make a move, could they be the last person on the boat and the first person off the boat? So uncertainty really kind of drives a lot of market parallelization from both the employer and the employee side. So hopefully we can get past this here relatively soon. But we’re definitely in a market where it’s very uncertain. And what you’re seeing is it’s not just the tariffs that are bringing the uncertainty. It’s the American Brand Association. So even companies that sell technology and their customers might predominantly be here in the US, they’re worried about who buys their customers’ product. And if they’re international, if you’re McDonald’s as an example, will people stop going to McDonald’s? Here locally, there’s going to be a tariff of the beef coming in from Australia or New Zealand or wherever the beef is coming from. And so we’re all kind of anticipating that uptick. But there’s also the what is the money coming to corporate McDonald’s because people in Britain are mad and they don’t want to go to an American restaurant in Japan. So the uncertainty really does spread pretty quick.
Kim Bohr 04:56
And so you mentioned three and I think just even though we’re in this period of uncertainty, can you just speak just briefly to the dynamics of the first two to read, maybe read ground listeners.
Tim Springers 05:07
Well, it’s funny too because everybody will talk about ghosting, right? There’s always two sides to the ghosting story and you can really tell who’s going to get ghosted based on what kind of market you’re at. So if it’s the employee market, that’s where the candidates have the power where they can have multiple offers, things are accelerating. They don’t really have to make decisions as promptly because there’s a lot of opportunities coming at them. Well, when it shifts like it did in September of 2022 to the employer market, I think the catalyst of that really was when Elon Musk from a technology perspective went into Twitter with the sync and cut half of their engineering team. What that did was allowed all the other companies that were thinking about letting go of individuals see that, hey, Twitter didn’t break. He just cut half of the employees and so we can do the same thing. And so when that happened, there was a surplus of people in the technology space. And so it became an employer driven market. So the wages weren’t accelerating and the things that follow also kind of decreased.
Kim Bohr 06:18
So in this uncertain market, because we’ve got the changes the current administration is making, the tariff threats that are happening, the larger international brand impact, I know even on our end in the work we do from the career coaching and career transition side, we are seeing companies really hesitating to know if they should be investing in growth or if they’re needing to make cuts into headcount. And I think last year, what we noticed was there were cuts being made more strategically when they were being made around investment more for AI. And it feels like now there’s the unknown as to if we have to make cuts, it’s not even necessarily to make them to invest in that place right now because of the uncertainty that’s happening. And we’re also seeing that growth consideration really being just kind of people are trying to decide should we have the space to invest in the growth or not. So we’re seeing a little bit of that for sure in our business as well. So when you think about the candidates you work with predominantly in that sales professional role with organizations that can be global in size, what are some of the biggest mistakes that you see candidates make when they’re trying to really pivot into different roles or industries during these uncertain times? Because we know that that forces. So let’s talk a little bit about that because I think that’s something that is really relevant to what people might be experiencing today.
Tim Springers 07:53
Yeah. So when you’re making a pivot, I mean, the first thing that you have to look at is what market are we in? Because when it’s the employee market, you can make any pivot you want because there’s a shortage of people to fill those roles. And so the one thing that individuals, when it shifts over to the employee market, what they don’t take into consideration is where they are at their career. And usually what that means is how much are they making? And so as an example, if you’re trying to make a pivot and you make, we’ll just use easy, simple math. But if you make a hundred thousand dollars and you want to make a pivot, the wrong messaging that you can say to somebody is, I know I’m going to have to take a haircut in what I’m making. And so I’m prepared to do that versus, Hey, I’ve done my research and based on my research, I know that I’m going to be making 60,000. So I’m looking for something around that amount. Because then it tells the person that you’re talking to that you’ve done the research and you know what you’re getting into versus them having to inform you. So the biggest mistake is one, not knowing what cycle we’re in, because if it’s an uncertain market, it’s a very difficult time to pivot because everyone’s trying to pivot. And if it’s not a employee driven one, know your value relative to the market.
Kim Bohr 09:15
So really doing that legwork and that research is really important.
Tim Springers 09:19
Yeah, I mean, even in even in a healthy market where you’re hitting multiple offers, and it’s an employee driven one. I mean, the example that I always use is, if I were to be getting married, and I needed somebody to bake a cake for me, I’m not gonna ask you to bake me a cake because you make brownies twice a month, I’m gonna go to somebody who does it for a living. Because I think it’s human nature to think that we can do everything and do anything. But what people are paying for at a certain point in your career specialization. So you’ve got to really focus in on what you do well, and know what your value is compared to that pivot that you’re making. And yes, it means you’re going back
Kim Bohr 09:58
Yeah, so let’s talk a little bit about that more, because I think that is something where we see people, you know, and you and I have had discussions prior around, you know, job seekers, and really this idea of like, you either think about it from a functional lens, or you think about it from an industry lens. But there’s knowing that, and when you and I talked about it, that was a, that was one of those kind of crystallizing moments of like, that makes so much sense, especially when we’re in an uncertain time. So let’s talk a little bit more about kind of that, what does it mean to be in that functional, you know, versus industry, and a little bit more about how that pivot might look.
Tim Springers 10:33
Yeah, so let’s say as an example, I want to make a pivot. Right now, I’m in recruiting, and I’m not in technology. So if I wanted to make a pivot to a similar role, it’s pretty easy. I go to another recruiting company, and I can talk about my experience and the results that I’ve have, and they can address what is my market value, and we can see if it’s a fit or not. If I’m trying to get into something different, let’s say a technology company, what I need to look at is what are my transferable skills? Or what is my transferable industry? And so if I was going to make that pivot into a technology company, I would want to focus on ones that are trying to address things that recruiters have as pain points. So whether it be an applicant tracking system, or any kind of AI addressing what recruiters might do, because I’ve got one half of the equation, there’s either the role experience, or there’s the industry experience that they can draw from. But if I have neither of them, it’s almost impossible to make a pivot on that.
Kim Bohr 11:34
So we see a lot of people that have a desire to be in tech, or who come from tech and who feel like the only other, because they’ve been in tech for so long, the only thing they could do to make the kind of money they’ve made is stay in tech. Let’s talk a little bit about that, because I think that’s a fallacy that people may not realize there’s alternatives than just those two.
Tim Springers 11:58
Yeah, I mean, it depends on where you are in your career, because certainly what happens is you’re getting compounding on what you’ve done, and you’re climbing a ladder from a compensation perspective. And so there can be some truth to, it’s gonna be hard to make a pivot. But the question is, can you take a step backwards to get two steps forward? Because a lot of times, it’s not always monetarily where people are trying to make the pivot. It’s also about longevity. And so in tech roles, a lot of times, these roles will go two to three years, where if you get into, you know, manufacturing, distribution, other industries, people are there for 5, 10, 15, 20, 30 years with one company. And so there’s a lot of staying power. And so I think a lot of times when people are looking at these pivots, they’re looking more from a, what is the balance of money, the stability look like?
Kim Bohr 12:53
Would you also say that sometimes there is a big upside potential to something that’s maybe not on the surface as attractive of an industry?
Tim Springers 13:05
Yes, 100%. Yeah, it’s one of those that it’s not always the glam that brings the money. It’s the things that people need to use all the time, right? Like if we’re going to have a down market and my water backs up in my house, I don’t have the skill set to address it. I need to hire a plumber. And so there’s certain industries that are just very recession proof and one that not a lot of people are getting into. And in that example, you don’t have to become a plumber. There’s a lot of people that are getting ready to retire. And what you’re seeing is from a generation to generation, there’s not a lot of passing down of these businesses. There’s a lot more of these businesses that are for sale because people want to forge their own path. They don’t want to take over the family business. So there’s a great opportunity for people, whether it be franchises or buy, sell business, whatever these might be, to create a different path and not be locked into what you’ve done in the past from a corporate perspective.
Kim Bohr 14:10
I think that’s a really important piece to share, you know, I know a lot of the career coaching our team does, there are people who part of the experience is to understand is the path that they just left the right path for them and today with everything they have in their life. And for some, it is going down that entrepreneurial road that could look very much like you described. And I think it’s a really important factor to bring in when people are thinking about making a change or a change is forced upon them.
Tim Springers 14:39
Yeah, so I think it’s important to talk through why you’re making the pivot because the grass isn’t always greener and really identifying like what are the things that are missing and the reason that you’re exploring a move. So I think having somebody that you can talk to, whether it’s career coaching or a trusted, you know, friend advisor who talks through it and says, hey, maybe what you need to do is fix what’s right here because if you go to XYZ company, it’s going to be the same problem, just different logo, and sometimes it is you need to change, right? Like if you’re undervalued in the market or there’s been a change in leadership and you don’t see eye with the principles that they’re bringing in, but having that kind of sounding board is very important.
Kim Bohr 15:21
That’s very, very important, which takes us into talking a bit more about, you know, us having a strong network. And I think this is something that we all inherently know, and some degree, you know, many of us do, I think, but I think there is this, there’s a lot of opportunity for most, to really build that network more effectively, especially as we get more back into more face to face time. And so I really would like to hear you share a little bit of, you know, kind of your thoughts on that. But also, what how can people leverage, you know, working with somebody like yourself, when maybe your network doesn’t have as broad of reach as you initially think it might.
Tim Springers 15:59
Yeah, well, I think first and foremost, a recruiter can accelerate that. So if you’ve neglected your network, what they’re going to be able to do is identify, like we’re having this conversation very specifically, like here are the places you could pivot based on your experience. And rather than you doing a lot of the research, they might be able to expedite that by saying, Hey, you’re making 120,000 right now. Are you going to be able to live on 70? And it’s going to be your realization point of no, I can’t. So they can accelerate the fact that you haven’t developed a strong network. And they can also open doors that sometimes might not appear to be open based on the conversations of the things that might be peeled back during that conversation. From a networking perspective, I think it’s human nature to network when you need something. And, you know, the example that you will hear is you can’t just go to the garden, when you need a carrot, you got to go plant the seeds. Or if you go, you know, shopping, when you’re hungry, you’re going to buy everything in the store, whatever analogy it might be. The reality is you’ve got to continuously go out there and do things differently. Otherwise you’re either one, neglecting your current network or two, you’re not growing it. So you’re getting groupthink. And so I think what people need to do is evaluate how much time am I spending on building my network, whether it’s for current business or things in the future. And then two, am I doing things different or am I basically staying in that my same safe ecosystem?
Kim Bohr 17:37
And what do you recommend for that balance between digital and in-person? And I think, you know, there’s so much of the LinkedIn world, right, that we all have. So I’m really curious about your thoughts on that.
Tim Springers 17:52
I think Jamie Dimon, if you haven’t heard his rant on remote working, you should check it out. It’s a good 90 seconds, 120 seconds. But I mean, part of what he’s saying is it’s not just about people, the fear of employers having that people aren’t working as hard or as much. There’s also that human element of people who are working remotely are being passed up for promotions that they would probably get because they’re not getting the FaceTime. And I think that relates to if you’re networking just from a digital perspective, you’re missing that human connection that we’ve had throughout history that has been changed very recently to a very digital experience. So while I can see your face and I can sense your emotion, there’s also body language things that I might not be able to pick up on that you pick up on person or something in the environment happens that you both experience together versus I’m in my environment, you’re in your environment. So we’re not truly experiencing it the same way. So I think it’s good to do both because digital can expand you to places you might not be able to go. I was on a call learning about retirement planning and there was somebody from Argentina and somebody from New York and somebody from London and we were all having a conversation where I’m not going to fly those places to talk to these people who are trying to figure out the same things. And so I think it’s similar when you’re networking of how you can accomplish different tasks with the in-person versus the digital.
Kim Bohr 19:28
I think that’s a very important point, and especially when we’re just starting to see more and more of these in-person opportunities. And I think, too, it doesn’t have to be a formal event as people go to, right? It could also just be reaching out to somebody, having coffee, finding common ground, even in community, where we just naturally come across each other and having an opportunity just to stop and talk and take a little bit of extra time, maybe.
Tim Springers 19:58
There’s meetups for, if you’re going to go on a run, if you’re going to play pickleball, join a book club, right? What’s making a resurgence is Barnes and Nobles, like Barnes and Nobles coming back. And I don’t know if you’ve gone into those anytime recently, but the experience is great. And they’ve created the community that I think that Starbucks is trying to gain back, that third place. And so there might be opportunities for the things that you love and enjoy, where you can expand your circle.
Kim Bohr 20:29
So if we were to say, Hey, let’s think about like, what are the top three tips you would give people about how to rethink, you know, networking right now, if they were, especially if they’re impacted in job stop search, what would that be?
Tim Springers 20:42
Well, I think first and foremost, do something different. I think we are, you know, we do things on a repetitive, a safe, I wake up, I have my coffee, like we do things that feel comfortable and get outside of your comfort zone. That’s going to be a huge one. Number two would be mixing it up from a digital and an in-person. And so you’re seeing which one are you more successful at? Are you more successful at the digital version or going in person and having conversations with people? And then the last thing I would say is think about somebody else, right? I think that a lot of times we get so consumed about what’s going on in our world, where sometimes the best thing you can do is help somebody else, because it opens doors that you’re not trying to open. I’m not saying go out and do something because you’re going to get something back, but just inevitably it comes full circle. I mean, I believe that when you go out and try different, I’ll give you an example. I’m on this board for Shoreline Community College, and it’s a business advisory board where they meet once a quarter and you’ve got to approve what’s going on in the school because they get government funding. And I just did it because I wanted to give back and be part of the community. Five years into it, one of the board members who had just stepped down, called me up and says, hey, we have this search for this position. I never in a million years would have ran into that person, bumped into them, and they probably went to reach out to me based on what they were looking for, but it was a perfect fit.
Kim Bohr 22:18
Yeah, so much of where we’re at. It’s a great example. Sometimes we forget to look where we’re already just spending our time and realizing that there’s nothing wrong with sharing what we’re searching for, expressing that we’ve been impacted by the uncertainty or we’re really starting to think and really crafting and putting that out there and really bring a lot of good results if we just think about it, looking closer by. Okay, so let’s talk a little bit about, you see a lot of resumes. There’s so much debate around resumes today and what works and what doesn’t work in AI and all these different things. But I think from the lens of a recruiter, I would say what are the most common mistakes you see in a market like this that is uncertain?
Tim Springers 23:06
I think first you gotta take a step back and think who’s going to be looking at the resume. People like me, internal recruiters, sorcerers, they’re going to be the first line of defense. And I say that from a perspective of, I think sometimes people try to make their document look a certain way. And if you’re sitting in the shoes of a recruiter, some of these individuals are looking at hundreds of resumes a day. And so when you’re trying to make multiple columns or fancy graphics, my thing is always you want your resume to look like everyone else’s resume, but you want your content to be better. And so the biggest mistake that I think people make is try to make it fancy versus having the impact of the information on the resume. So keep yourself safe.
Kim Bohr 24:02
Yeah.
Tim Springers 24:03
substance, 100%. How many people read a magazine or newspaper? The numbers are going lower and lower. So if you have multiple columns on your resume, as I’m going through hundreds of resume, I’m already thrown off because I’m not processing a lot of information that way versus all the way across the screen. So the first thing is looking at what other people are doing and 99% of people have it formatted that way. And then from what to have on there, you have to have measurables, measurables, measurables. It doesn’t matter what you do, but how many people have looked at a job description and thought, like, this was nothing? Like, what did I just read? It’s a whole bunch of words. And well, on the flip side, if I can’t look at your resume and know that you’re good at what you do, what’s going to make me talk to you? Either your tenure, and then there’s other little things like, you know, have you had somebody else look at it and proof it? Because if you’re doing little things like you’re spelling a word wrong, like if you send it to me as a Word doc, well, you’ve approved it on your computer, but my word hasn’t approved it. And so I can see if you spelled something wrong. You should always PDF it. And if you’re going to do like little things like abbreviations of like a month, well, if you abbreviate one month and the next one, you don’t have clients that will reject a resume for something as small as that. So sweat the small details, make it look uniform, but then just have really good content.
Kim Bohr 25:42
So I think those are really, really great tips. So talk a little bit about where does, you know, the fear around AI, you know, and the bots reading the resumes from what you’ve been able to, you know, experience and research, what is that? What’s the reality around that?
Tim Springers 25:58
Well, I mean, there’s certainly like, how can we make things more streamlined? But when I was at a networking event six or seven years ago, and you could say, Hey, six or seven years ago, it was a lifetime, but there was a very prominent tech company who had a AI, um, division and they were asked like, Hey, how much of this are you using to screen through your resumes? And they were doing none of it, none of it. And I think, is there some of it? Sure. But at the end of the day, if a company needs the hire, they are going to look at all the resumes because if I have 200 resumes go through, I think it, you know, the number is like the average resume is looked at for six to 10 seconds before there’s a decision to kind of like dive into it or not. So it’s quick. Yeah. And so do I need to get rid of that? Because at the end of the day, I need good people and companies need good people. So I think it’s more hype than reality, but there’s certainly some companies that are leaning into it like anything else, but I think it’s a small minority.
Kim Bohr 27:07
maybe smaller than we think about from the perspective of the AI type of technology, reading the resume and classifying it without some type of oversight, human oversight coming in.
Tim Springers 27:17
I think you still have because applicant tracking systems have had screening capabilities for very long time. And so even when you’d have those, you know, earlier when I was doing sales at careerbuilder.com, and we would be working with like Providence, who would get 100,000 resumes, and they’d set up screening questions, if they didn’t have enough applicants, they would look at the people who get past the screening. Because at the end of the day, it’s their job to hire people. And so they, they might start with a certain group. But that’s because the content is relative to what they’re looking for. So this goes back to the idea of like, you have to have really good content, it’s got to be strong. And you probably hear AB testing a lot from when it comes from a marketing perspective. But I think the same thing is true for creating a resume. If you’re not tracking what you’re doing when you send out your resumes, you don’t know what you’re where you’re falling short.
Kim Bohr 28:14
And where is your perspective on the one size fits all resume versus the targeted?
Tim Springers 28:20
approach. One size fits all doesn’t help anybody. Unless you’re going to a very small company that needs you to wear multiple hats, most people are paying for specialization. And so if you want to look at a sales role and a customer service role or a marketing role, I think you just need to have a different resume for each of those functions and be able to talk to these are the sales roles that I’m interviewing with when you’re in the interview and talk about the sales ones and just focus on that one area. But if you’re looking at other paths, just have a different resume, have a different conversation piece because at the end of the day, most people when they get a resume are looking at it right before they go into an interview. People aren’t studying it. Yeah, right before they walk into an interview, they take it, they scan it real quick. And they’re like, what questions am I going to ask?
Maria Ross 29:17
Mm-hmm
Tim Springers 29:18
So, that’s where it comes back to content. To me, it’s like numbers stand out to people. If you’ve got numbers in there, they’re going to look at it and focus it. And so, you have to have perspective to those numbers where people can then ask the questions based on that.
Kim Bohr 29:35
That makes a lot of sense. So what advice do you give to people who maybe are trying to break into sales, they haven’t, you know, they maybe they have a really nice work history, but it’s not been a traditional sales role. How do you help them kind of come into this into translating into what you think is so important for that content?
Tim Springers 29:53
Yeah. So it depends where you are in your career and what you’ve done. Right. So as an example, let’s say that you were sales adjacent and you were working as a waiter, you know, what I’m looking for is somebody can handle a conversation, go back and forth and ask questions, you know, be natural, naturally curious. And when they’re talking about their experience, they’re positioning in a way that you can tell that they’re used to kind of already selling something or positioning something. So if you’re a waiter and you’re trying to tell me why you’d be good at sales, if you say, Hey, I worked at Luigi’s Cafe for four years, and every Friday we’d have a competition to see who can sell the most specials. And 90% of the time out of five people, I would sell the most by 15%. You know, just some kind of nugget that shows that you understand that you’ve got to position it. And you’ve got to articulate your value proposition because your value proposition and this is you. But eventually, it’s going to be the company’s value proposition.
Kim Bohr 31:06
That makes a lot of sense. And having people be able to speak to the fact that the way they can articulate that really can help demonstrate their ability to believe in what they were representing, how they are able to hear what people are asking or saying back to them and pivoting around, that makes a lot of sense too.
Tim Springers 31:25
And so it can be trickier, you know, the further you get removed, like before in finance, the narrative needs to change and you need to maybe draw on some personal things like, Hey, I understand that I’ve been a CPA for the last four years. But here are some other things that I’ve done. I’m on the board of our nonprofit that does fundraising and we raised $20,000 by going and soliciting gifts and then we have this event. So I understand it’s not the same, but these are some of the areas that I could pull from my personal experience for a position like this.
Kim Bohr 32:01
That’s a great point to make. Again, reaching into what are the other things that we already aren’t inclined to be doing and just realizing that they have relevancy. What about, you know, talk a little bit about the, some of the interview techniques, you know, you see, what strategies do you recommend for people when they’re, you know, they’re trying, you know, they’re interviewing, maybe they also feel pressure with life. What do you try to kind of the top three things maybe you try to express to them? Yeah.
Tim Springers 32:30
I mean, I think that when you’re interviewing, you have to look at it, and this might be easier for me to say because I’ve always been in a sales environment and now I’m doing sales recruiting, but looking at it is like a sales cycle. And what I mean by that is you’ve got your resume that you’re sending out to the world. And so you need to track where you’re sending it and if you’re getting a response. And then if you’re getting a response, are you getting the amount of responses you feel like you should get? And if not, change it up to see if you get better response rate. And then when you get to the next part, it’s going to be a recruiter screen. When you’re having the recruiter screen, are you then getting to the hiring manager screen? If you’re getting to the hiring manager, are you getting to here? And so depending on the industry, they might have anywhere from one to 10 steps. And so you’ve got to track every step to know where you’re falling short because then you can kind of take control on the areas that you might be falling short on because it might be the resume, but it might be your ability to close the hiring manager for the next step. It might be when you’re in a panel interview, you get to panel interviews every time and for some reason you’re falling short. And that’s where you might be able to go back to people and say, hey, can you explain to me why I didn’t get this role? Because I’ve noticed that I’ve been falling short when I get to panel interviews and they might say, you know what, when somebody asks you a question, you look at them when they’re asking the question, but then you seem to look at the most who you seem to be think might be the most important person in the room to answer the question. And so you might not realize you’re doing these little things that if you track it, you can find out these little things that will get you to the next offer.
Kim Bohr 34:18
I think that is such an important piece of advice for people, Tim, because those little subtleties and those nuances like that are really important. And unless we go and ask for feedback, we don’t get it. And so that’s a huge one.
Tim Springers 34:34
And some people, some companies won’t give you feedback. It’s just policy they won’t. But a lot will because they’ve been on the other side of it and they want to help you. And so, and then the other thing I think people need to realize is, especially in a market like right now, there are a lot more people looking for jobs than there are jobs. And so if you’ve got a role that gets 300 applicants, they might interview three to five people. So that means they’re interviewing one to one and a half percent of the people who apply, who get to an offer. And so you just have to do a lot more activity. You have to do a lot more outside the box in terms of the networking things we spoke about and realize that it might not be you. It might be the environment. And so you just have to do more to compensate for what the environment looks like at the moment.
Kim Bohr 35:25
that persistence is really incredibly important right now. One of the things that stands out to me as well, as I listen to you, is this need that we just, as human beings have, right, of control. And when we’re in a time, as we are now, where there’s more uncertainty, there’s a sense of lack of control. Yet when I listen to you, I think what you’ve described so far feels like there’s a lot we can control in this job search arena, if we think of it from the way you’re speaking. And that, to me, feels very, I don’t know if comforting’s quite the right word, but it does feel like there’s something that can be done, versus feeling like something, we’re just a victim of these things that are happening around us that we can’t control right now.
Tim Springers 36:13
Yeah, you can control the input. Sometimes you can’t control the output, right? You can put a lot of effort into it. But you can’t necessarily make somebody hire you. Right. And so you got to control the things that you can, which is your effort and your energy, and the time that you’re putting into it. But also, are you just throwing stuff everywhere? Because it’s very easy to apply everywhere. And I’m saying, I’m not saying don’t do that. But also know that if you’re applying to a company, and you’ve got four different resumes, and you’ve applied to four different roles within that company, and you’re like, I’m a perfect fit for all four of them. You kind of already showed that you don’t know where you want to go. Most people want somebody who know the direction that they’re going, not just on a job search, but most things leadership or whatever it might be. And so if you’re applying to a company, I say, stay focused on that role for that company. And then when you get the reject letter, go the next role that seems like the best fit. But don’t do it all the same. Yeah, all at once, you’re kind of like raising your hand saying anything. And yeah, that’s not the right approach.
Kim Bohr 37:23
Yep, that makes a lot of sense. So when, so when you see candidates researching potential roles, you know, what is some of the specific information that they should, you know, arm themselves with before interviewing? I know we’ve talked a little about, you know, the role itself, but tell what are some of the top things you try to prepare people for that work with you?
Tim Springers 37:43
Yeah, I mean, doing some research, whether regardless of what kind of economy it is, you want to do research where they ask you, do you know what we do, say, hey, a recruiter hit me up and they thought it’d be a good fit, doesn’t really wow anybody, it doesn’t matter the industry. And so you might think that you’re coming across as like in demand and hard to get, but you need to do your research. And for me, it’s looking at the company and the person that you’re going to be talking to. And so the person you’re talking to, you want to know when you look at their career path and their progression, not that you might have the same exact, but, you know, things that might come up as issues in other interviews, like, hey, your stints have been short. Well, if the person you’re talking to has had short stints, then that’s not something you have to worry about. Or you can say, hey, I noticed that you went from XYZ company to XYZ company, you know, similar to you, I made this pivot because, so being able to relate on certain items, whether it’s the industry, the product, the company, knowing their progression can help you in that conversation where you might hit a foreseen brick wall. The company, I think that if you go, I mean, most companies, if you go to YouTube, have a pretty quick overview of what they do. You can get a very good understanding in a very short amount of time because the marketing department has put this together to sell people, whether it’s the employee brand or the product, where you can get up and running really quick. So if you’re not doing that, you’re falling short. And then, you know, lean on your network, you know, the further you get along, I don’t think you get up for initial screen, but if you want to know other insight, there’s places like Glassdoor where you have to realize where the messaging is coming from because there’s going to be very bad and there’s going to be very good. And so somewhere in the middle of life is it true. And so I would focus on a little bit of each. And if there’s a reoccurring theme, if it’s a concern for you, bring it up. You should be able to address it.
Kim Bohr 39:51
I think that’s a really important part of this preparation is what are the questions that people should be coming into interviews with, right? Because it does become a two-way street to understand what they’re seeing and what’s going on. And I think the more people can become very skilled in thinking about those questions as it relates to what you were just saying, like understanding the research you’ve done and really trying to be more nuanced and more targeted into the company and the role, not just about your own personal benefit, I think that’s a really important component as well.
Tim Springers 40:26
Well, there’s a natural curiosity. I mean, I think that’s human nature. If we’re having a conversation, and I just talk, talk, talk, talk, talking, you’re not gonna probably leave the conversation thinking like, oh, we should hang out again. But there’s a natural curiosity for me to say, you know, oh, you do, you know, you’ve hiked four mountains, why do you do that? And like, so the natural curiosity, not only from a personal perspective, but from the company and what they do, and the questions you ask, I think it’s more important. Sometimes, the questions that you’re asking, versus the answers you’re giving to the questions they’re giving, because it shows your ability to listen, it shows your ability to have done the research and put it all together. So it’s not necessarily the questions that they’re asking as much as the ones that you’re going to ask. So have some ready that you’ve done the research, and you’ve got questions you want to know, and those could change during the conversation. But then also have a couple that come up through the conversation that if it’s not natural, you’re asking at the end of the conversation.
Kim Bohr 41:29
Very good. And I think that’s a really important takeaway. So, you know, let’s shift gears just a little bit and talk about the reality of, you know, people that are in the workplace, you know, we all have had those moments of getting pinged on LinkedIn by somebody who’s, you know, tried to say they want to represent, you know, us for a position. So, you know, with so many of these recruiters reaching out on platforms like that, you know, how can job seekers really evaluate the quality of a recruiting partner that they want to work with, being really mindful, and maybe also just not thinking that they’re having to put all their eggs in one basket. I think that’s a really important part of this conversation I want you to share your thoughts on.
Tim Springers 42:10
Yeah, so, I mean, I’m not an eggs in one basket sort of guy. Right? Yeah. The reality is that unless you’re super senior, like, the CEO of Chipotle, who is now the CEO of Starbucks, like, I don’t think you should have just one representation. And you can have multiple people on helping you on your search. I mean, when you’re looking for a job, I always say, hey, I’m an extension, why not have somebody helping you look, if you’re looking at the same time, you don’t need to shut down what you’re doing. But, you know, let me bring other opportunities that I’m seeing that based on our conversation. And to your question, like, how are you vetting that? I think, like anything else, you’re looking at what’s their digital footprint, like, how long have I been doing this? What is my area of focus? And who is in my network that we might know that’s, you know, a mutual connection. And then when you’re having the conversation, you know, earlier, you asked why I got into the business. And part of it was, you know, somebody said, you could do this. And I thought, maybe I should do this. The other part was, whenever I had a recruiter call me, it was like, how much do you make? What do you want to make? And the conversation was either prolonged from that period, or it was cut dead. And I thought, man, that didn’t feel very good. That was like five minutes. And, you know, when I’m talking to somebody, the conversations can go very long, because I want to know what are the motivators? What are you looking for? Because if you go somewhere where and you’re there, for a year or two, like, either you or the company’s not happy. And I want to build a business that’s a repeatable, referred business. And so I think you’ve got to evaluate the conversation when you are having those conversations. Like, do you feel like the person was listening to you and had your best interest? Or did it seem one sided?
Kim Bohr 44:03
Like they’re just checking a box or trying to hit their own quota numbers of who they’re taking a box.
Tim Springers 44:08
But are they bringing up things that you didn’t think about?
Kim Bohr 44:10
Right. So bringing value into the conversation.
Tim Springers 44:13
they bringing value or was it a good use of your time? And do you enjoy them? Because the reality is people partner with people that they enjoy interacting with. And so who they’re interacting with is very rare that you’re going to be working with a company as a recruiter, a third party recruiter like me, where you really don’t like who you’re partnering with. Right. You know, because it’s an extension of me. So when I’m helping someone find a job for a company, there’s an extension of my brand going both ways that if there is not a match, like I’m not going to dirty myself with that on either side of the equation.
Kim Bohr 44:52
Yeah, the brand part is so huge because that is a really important point that I think maybe gets missed on both sides sometimes that reflection is really important to feel that it’s been true partnership, it’s been valued, and you can’t say enough about the impact on a brand in any, whether it’s personal or a company level, bad dynamics have really terrible outcomes.
Tim Springers 45:20
100%. Yeah, I mean, you’ve, and you also have to look at like, yeah, what type of role and how big of a jump and does it make sense. So there’s other things that, you know, you can very quickly get a sense of like, is this like a volume issue that the company is dealing with? Or is it a quality thing? So you can kind of get a sense based on the roles that they’re bringing your way. So I think, you know, the early on, it’s more the digital experience or digital looking in to see like, do I want to war on a conversation? And then once you have the conversation, like, did they bring the value?
Kim Bohr 45:56
So should people ever expect to pay to work? Should any candidates ever expect to pay to work with a recruiter?
Tim Springers 46:04
Well, I would never say never to anything, but I would never pay. So never say never, but I never would look in this market. There are third party companies that have because the job orders aren’t there. They’re trying to find a way to make up for the lost revenue. And so they’re doing like resume reviews and rewrites and LinkedIn refreshes where it’s a couple hundred bucks. So that’s a decision, but you should never pay a percentage or a couple thousand. And also, I think you’re going to get advice from 10 different recruiters that tell you 10 different things. And so you’ve got to take ownership and say, okay, I heard your advice and I liked this piece and I’m going to implement this piece and just run with it. And so I wouldn’t pay if they have someone and especially if they’re going to take a percentage, like there’s a newer model out there where for entry level, they basically get a percentage for each year you’re at a place like.
Kim Bohr 47:13
Yeah, those sound a little bit, it sounds like there’s a lot of slippery slope there in that.
Tim Springers 47:19
It depends on who you are. There’s value, but like from a sales perspective, like I’ve seen people take these boot camps that are like five to $10,000 and never get in sales. Yeah. Like, is there are things that you don’t know until you get into it that like, hey, picking up the phone and cold calling. Like that’s not fun. Right. I don’t think anyone in sales has ever thought like, hey, I love doing this. And so, you know, I think there’s elements of like, if you’re paying to get some kind of certification or education, I think a lot of it can be done for free on YouTube.
Kim Bohr 47:52
Yes, that is such an important piece of advice for people right now.
Tim Springers 47:57
Everyone’s trying to get famous for whatever reason it might be, but whatever your subject is, I have a squeaky garage door, so I’m watching these individuals who are professional garage people showing me how to fix it. In the past, I would have to call somebody, I’d have to do it. So if you’re thinking about like, hey, I might want to get into this, from a sales perspective, go somewhere where you have to go make cold calls. See if you’re actually willing to do it, because some of the entry-level roles that I work on, during the interview process, they’ll put you in with a group of salespeople and you’ve got to make cold calls.
Kim Bohr 48:38
You guys see how you really, you might sound good, but if you haven’t really done it, or you really don’t, you’re trying to sell yourself into it. It really does open up the reality check there. Well, so as we get to wrapping up our conversation, I’ve got one final question for you. Maybe two, but let’s just say one for now. So what’s one piece of practical advice you’d give someone who feels, you know, maybe they’re getting overlooked, looked into kind of this current job market.
Tim Springers 49:06
Have a conversation with somebody. I mean, my thing is always, one, looking at it as a sales cycle, knowing where you’re falling short, and two, I always say if a seven-year-old can’t understand it, it’s overcomplicated. Yeah, great point. So regardless of what your messaging is, even if you’re a networking thing, people just wanna know what you do. I recruit for sales roles. And then if they wanna draw in, what kind of companies? Well, I do 70% or tech and 30% being this and that and that. But if I started by just saying it, spewing it all out, I’m gonna lose my audience. So I think when you’re looking at your value proposition from when you’re networking, have it nice and tight, and be ready to expand on it. And then on your resume, same thing. Your parents, for most people, or your spouse, are the people who are gonna love you more than anyone. They have no idea what you do. Or maybe that’s just my family. But they love you and they have an idea, but you need to have somebody that if you explain it and they can’t just tell you what they do, it’s too complicated.
Kim Bohr 50:20
I think that’s really, really important.
Tim Springers 50:22
So I think the biggest thing is really knowing where you’re falling short, and knowing where you’re falling short. And have the activity to follow up. And at the end of the day, like this is a market where if you’re feeling like down, it’s a tough market. It’s not you. It’s not a normal market where you’ve got a lot of movement. And so you just got to keep pushing ahead and doing what you can control. And eventually things will turn.
Kim Bohr 50:51
So I just want to say, Tim, thank you so much for the time. I think you’ve just given the listeners so many different really solid nuggets, and hopefully wherever they’re at in this process, they’ve got something really tangible to take and to start to explore. So thank you so much for the time. And so for our listeners, we’ll have free resources relevant to our conversation today that you can download at courage to advance podcast.com, which will take you to our spark effect podcast page. And again, I want to thank Tim for sharing your journey and insights today, I want to thank the empathy edge for hosting our podcast sub series and to the listeners for tuning into this episode of courage to advance where transformative leadership isn’t about having all the answers, it’s about having the courage to find them. Thank you so much for joining us.
Tim Springers 51:44
Thanks, Gil.
Maria Ross 51:48
For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy, visit TheEmpathyEdge.com. There, you can listen to past episodes, access show notes and free resources, book me for a keynote or workshop, and sign up for our email list to get new episodes, insights, news, and events. Please follow me on Instagram at redslicemaria. Never forget, empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place.
