Internships have changed a lot since COVID, and if done well, they can be powerful tools for both attracting top young talent and fueling your organization’s productivity. But too often, leaders miss the mark, leaving interns underutilized and organizations frustrated.
Amy Mosher Berry shares what’s really going on with young professionals today and why mentorship and meaningful work enable your organization to thrive. Amy and I delve into what truly motivates and drives today’s young professionals, the biggest mistakes leaders should avoid when hiring interns, and how intergenerational strategies fueled by empathy can enhance collaboration and productivity. We discuss the important role of casual mentorship, how your internship program becomes a marketing strategy, and how effective programs not only benefit interns but also drive your mission and results.
To access the episode transcript, please scroll down below.
Listen in for…
- Important facts to know about the rising young professionals.
- Key mistakes to avoid in hiring the right interns.
- The detriments of the purpose gap are with both interns and employees.
“Internships, by law, need to have 51% majority benefit going to the intern. It has to be officially structured with learning objectives, and there needs to be that supportive process.” — Amy Mosher Berry
Episode References:
Forbes articles:
- Gen Z And The Empathy Expectation: What Workplace Leaders Need To Know
- 8 Ways Gen Z Can Meet Managers In The Middle And Shine At Work
The Empathy Edge:
- Anna Liotta: Understanding Generational Codes
- Michelle Hoover: Understanding First-Generation Professionals in Your Workplace
- Courage to Advance: Leading Gen Z with Dr. Meisha Rouser
- Rhonda George-Denniston: Why Betting on Your People Leads to Market Domination
- Fact Sheet #71: Government Guidelines for Internships
- Free guide: 8 Mistakes to Avoid When Hiring Interns
About Amy Mosher Berry, CEO of Visions Internships:
Amy Mosher Berry is a passionate social entrepreneur with over 20 years of diverse experience in business, government, and the nonprofit sector, including 15 years in workforce innovation, 5 years teaching college, and now as the CEO & Founder of Visions Internships.
Visions Internships primarily helps organizational leaders design and manage customized, impactful internship programs without the overwhelm. Amy’s social enterprise also empowers young professionals with the skills and support to succeed.
A certified Project Management Professional (PMP)® with a Master’s degree in Community Development and Planning and a Bachelor’s degree in Environmental Studies/ Spanish, she enjoys bringing a project management approach to program development for maximum results.
Amy lives in Central MA and is deeply dedicated to Co-Creating a World that Works – especially with her young daughter inspiring her every day.
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Connect with Amy:
Visions Internships: visionsinternships.com
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/amymosherberry
Facebook: facebook.com/visionsinternships
Instagram: instagram.com/visions_internships
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/company/visionsinternships
INTERNSHIP INSIDER™ Training (IIT): A live virtual 5-week program development course teaches 2-4 key staff members how to design a customized, impactful internship program as part of your organization’s overall growth strategy. visionsinternships.com/internship-insider
Connect with Maria:
Get Maria’s books: Red-Slice.com/books
Hire Maria to speak: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross
Take the LinkedIn Learning Courses! Leading with Empathy and Balancing Empathy, Accountability, and Results as a Leader
LinkedIn: Maria Ross
Instagram: @redslicemaria
Facebook: Red Slice
FULL TRANSCRIPT:
Maria Ross 00:00
Welcome to the empathy edge podcast, the show that proves why cash flow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. I’m your host, Maria Ross, I’m a speaker, author, mom, facilitator and empathy advocate. And here you’ll meet trailblazing leaders and executives, authors and experts who embrace empathy to achieve radical success. We discuss all facets of empathy, from trends and research to the future of work to how to heal societal divisions and collaborate more effectively. Our goal is to redefine success and prove that empathy isn’t just good for society. It’s great for business. Internships have changed a lot since covid and if done well, they can be powerful tools for both attracting top young talent and fueling your organization’s productivity, but too often, leaders miss the mark, leaving interns underutilized and organizations frustrated time to ditch the coffee runs and the grunt work and leverage the energy and potential of interns with empathy today. Amy Mosher, Barry, CEO and founder of visions internships, shares what’s really going on with young professionals today and why mentorship and meaningful work, enable your organization to thrive with 15 years in Workforce Innovation, five years teaching college and now as a certified Project Management Professional, Amy brings a proven approach to designing customized, high impact internship programs. She’s passionate about not just placing interns, but creating meaningful experiences that empower young professionals with the skills and confidence to succeed today. Amy and I delve into what truly motivates and drives today’s young professionals, the biggest mistakes leaders should avoid when hiring interns and how intergenerational strategies, fueled by empathy can enhance collaboration and productivity. We discuss the important role of casual mentorship, how your internship program becomes a marketing strategy, and how effective programs not only benefit interns, but also drive your mission and results. If you want to future proof your team and set both interns and your organization up for success. You don’t want to miss this conversation. Take a listen. Hello. Amy, welcome to the empathy edge. I have been looking forward to this conversation with you, as I do every conversation with you, because you energize me and your work with young professionals is unparalleled. So you’re going to help us peel back the curtain a little bit to understand what makes these younger generations tick, and also help guide us on what organizations could and should be doing to better help those younger professionals really get into the workforce so that they can take off running. So welcome to
Amy Mosher Berry 03:04
the show. Thank you so much, Maria. I’ve been really looking
Maria Ross 03:07
forward to this as well. Love it. Love it. Okay, so before we start with all the juiciness, tell us how you got into this work. You know you’re running your CEO of vision internships. We heard your bio. But how did you get here? How did your career evolve into this, and what’s the passion for it?
Amy Mosher Berry 03:26
Well, thanks for giving me a chance to offer my brief story. So I’ll start with I had sort of been, I’d say, nominated onto the college Island. I was, you know, the middle child of three, grew up in central Massachusetts, and after I finished college at UVM, little did I know 911 was just, you know, a few months away, and I happened to be back up in Vermont, and I was just the luckiest person. I was in the right time and place, and I got to have about five six minutes myself with Jane Goodall. We were at a peace and sustainability conference back up in the Burlington, Vermont area, right after I graduated college. So I felt like the world was my oyster. Here I am. I just sort of stumbled across Jane Goodall, of all people, and she basically said, and of course, we didn’t know 911 was going to happen. Two days later, she basically said, Amy, you know, you’re very passionate. You’re going to make a big difference out there. And no matter what happens out there in the world, always follow your heart. And of course, on September 9 of 2001 I was like, oh, okay, that sounds really important and good. And then I just kind of rolled on back to Central Massachusetts where I was I had been recruited to be an AmeriCorps volunteer in the environmental education space. I was happy to be sort of doing that purposeful work. And I had this amazing golden nugget from Jane Goodall. And when 911 hit, and I mean, over half of our group of 28 just left, like the next day, like we didn’t know the other shoe was going to drop, it was a very scary time, as you recall. And I just sort of, you know, dug in. I said, Okay, well, Jane told me to. You know, always follow my heart. And I just kind of dug into the work even more. And, you know, I really, I realized that so many people back then, okay, they weren’t really into signing up for the weekend river cleanup, you know. So I just sort of, you know, changed on the fly, being an AmeriCorps volunteer. I said, Okay, where are people at right now? What do they need? And I got very, very interested, Maria, and basically, what are people doing with their lives, specifically their careers, their chosen career paths? And so I basically went into that sort of career development space. Always interesting to me, but it’s not something that I thought I was going to pursue. Having thought that the main focus of my career trajectory was going to be environmental education. But I basically, you know, felt like that’s what people needed then, and I had a lot of incredible conversations. And, you know, I mean, over, well, over 20 years, I’ve done a lot of things in for profit, nonprofit, government. Soon after that, you know, I had worked in the schools. I decided that it was more after school programming that was interesting to me. I try to play by the rules. Maria, you know what I mean, but I definitely am more entrepreneurial, and I don’t love being told what I can’t do inside a system. So I felt the after school program arena was a little bit bigger and more in line, and then I also felt sort of stifled there. I ended up getting a job with the city of Worcester at the Career Center, and I was working more with the long what who became long term unemployed after the Great Recession. So 2000 as you recall, nine, 2010 1112, and I was helping people, especially in science, tech, engineering and math, kind of reinvent themselves. And you know, basically, I just fell in love with, like, helping people, like, see what they were up to in their lives. Yeah, had an amazing boss. That boss retired. I said, Ooh, I’m seeing the writing on the wall here. So I transitioned to higher ed. I taught college for five years here in Central Massachusetts, and I was fortunate to teach over 650 students at two different schools. And I said, You know what, man, way too many of my college students are graduating with zero real world experience. So I left my teaching, I threw in the towel, and I decided I’m going to single handedly transform internships. I really wanted to make internships work for both the young person, but also the host organization. And then when covid hit, things got even wilder, which we’ll talk about that.
Maria Ross 07:11
Oh my gosh. Okay. What a journey, what an experience to meet Jane Goodall and basically have your career trajectory be informed by her nuggets of wisdom, so great. And the theme, obviously, you know from you and I met years ago when you were working in corporate, yeah. And the theme I have heard over and over again, from your story, from your work now, is your passion for a young people. But anyone at a crossroads, anyone sort of trying to get to the next level, and they may not even know what that level is yet, right? And your ability, which is why you’re here, your ability to be empathetic with those people, even if that hasn’t been your experience, has been profound, and I think it’s what’s made you so successful and with your business now, helped make your clients so successful, both the young people and the organizations that you’re working with. So let’s talk a little bit about young people, right? And I always feel weird saying that, because that when you use that phrase, that automatically makes you an old person. And we’ve heard, you know, five generations in the workplace, inter generational conflict is rampant. We’ve done several episodes around trying to understand different generations. I will link to a few of those in the show notes for anyone listening. And you know, I spoke with you for a few of the articles that I recently wrote for Forbes, for my column, where I wrote one article for leaders about, hey, this is what Gen Z is really like and really what they want. And then I wrote another article like, hey, Gen Z, this is what your leaders are asking of you, because it’s really kind of a dual responsibility. So give us you’re working shoulder to shoulder with so many young people for so long. What do you want us to know about these younger generations entering the workforce. What have you seen? I know you’ve talked a little bit you and I have talked a little bit about, yeah, their motivations, their view of work, their view of the world, and how they want to contribute. So tell us a little bit about what you’re seeing. Educate us.
Amy Mosher Berry 09:15
Yeah, no. Thank you so much. And it’s like, I’m not nobody’s age czar. You know, I definitely, I’m mindful of that terminology as well. So thank you for saying that. And you know, I’ll just say very briefly, what, where I’ve gone with this, in terms of defining that loosely, is that like 18 to 35 and I was 18 to 29 focus for a long time, and then when we had our recent annual career Leadership Conference for purpose driven young professionals, it was very clear that, like, there’s like, the 30, 123, they’re like, can we come and I was like, You know what? Of course, right. So I just want to say that it’s a little bit open ended. So I think that’s important, that just that we’re all kind of mindful with what we make that mean. So that said, like, who are they, what are they looking for? Where are. They what makes them tick. I think that’s such an interesting place to play in that sandbox right now. So, I mean, I think the big word, although sometimes overused, is purpose. They are looking for meaningful, not just menial work. So knowing that they are early career, so they know they’re coming in with little to no work experience, like they’re not oblivious to that. And, you know, we’ve talked about the and sign many times, so it’s an and conversation. They know they really lack current, real world experience, which is why they really want to get in with the right company that cares about them, first and foremost, as a human being. And they really want to, you know, not be seen as someone who’s lazy or unmotivated or is just hanging out in their parents basement, who doesn’t want to work. I think young people are pretty frustrated with that sort of take. Now, are there some young people that may fit that? Sure, but by
Maria Ross 10:54
that’s been every generation, yeah.
Amy Mosher Berry 10:58
So I want to be seen as the sort of purpose driven young person who they are that is interested and wants to be acknowledged for doing meaningful work, and they are going to need that guidance. You know, I do think it’s important. They’re looking for responsibility and to be challenged, but they’re also looking, rather than just blindly delegating, they’re looking for you to demonstrate before you delegate to young people. They feel like, you know, okay, I want to be doing something that’s meaningful and not just something that’s in line with my own personal hobby, right, my own personal passion. Like they’re clear that the company is up to fulfill on a mission, right? That’s why they brought them in. So I think they need to be given that benefit of the doubt that they do want to contribute. They do want to add value to where the company needs them to add value, but the company needs to give them a little bit more direction, and not just kind of a written or even audio or video direction, which is also important to give directions in multiple modes and methodologies, because as we know, people you know hear, they listen and process information differently. So it is important to give those instructions in multiple ways, but it’s also really important to show them how you want them to do the work and ask for feedback frequently.
Maria Ross 12:15
Yeah, well, and you’ve talked in the past, you and I have talked in the past about the purpose gap as well as the experience gap. Because what I’ve always found intriguing about the work that you do is it’s not just another internship program. You’re really trying to up level people into meaningful internships that are not just, hey, what’s the leftover work that we don’t want to do? Let’s give that to the intern, but to really use it as an opportunity to not only benefit the intern, to gain those important skills they need to make that jump from college or whatever next level education they’re coming from into the workforce, and we forget how hard that is, and especially with the generations that have come up. I wrote about this in one of my articles. A lot of them were impacted by covid, and they didn’t have the learning by osmosis of just being in the office and seeing what everyone was doing and figuring it all out right, and really understanding the unsaids. So there’s that end of it. But also, why would an organization spend so much time and energy to bring interns into their organization if they were just going to give them meaningless work, like, how much more can they accelerate their progress? How much more can they drive results if they actually use interns strategically? So talk to us about, I think you mentioned a little bit about the purpose gap, but kind of explain what that is to us, and then talk to us a little bit about that experience gap that young people are dealing with right now.
Amy Mosher Berry 13:42
That’s great. Thanks, Maria. So first on the purpose gap, and that is, you know, not my term. I can’t take credit for that, but I actually, I really leverage this study that was done back in 2019 it was Gallup research partnered up with Bates College from Maine, here in New England, and they basically determined that over 80% of today’s graduates are seeking purposeful work. So that means something that is ideally related to helping people, helping plan it. It’s bigger than just their own immediate next step. It’s something that is impactful, socially, environmentally, that makes a big difference for young people. And so there is the purpose gap, as you mentioned. That is, it explains a lot of the mist. There’s a disconnect often between young people and today’s employers, and covid just exacerbated that whole dynamic. Because I don’t think a lot of you know more seasoned business professionals have a real sense. I think people are opening their eyes to this more in terms of the bigger trend as to like, why are we having a hard time both attracting and retaining today’s young professionals? So I think, you know, and that’s something I’ve written on as well. You know, how do we attract and retain today’s young professionals, whether or not they’re going to be coming in as an intern or they could be a w2 or coming in as a project to 99 consultant, whatever the case may be, there are specific strategies. Is that employers really do want to take a look at so it is addressing the purpose gap, making sure that young people are being plugged into actual meaningful work. And, you know, it’s meaningful based on the organization’s mission, but it’s also requires some listening, which is where the empathy, I think, also comes into play as a real business builder, right? It’s a there’s a business case as you well, know, who am I? I’m preaching the converted here, right? To really acknowledge that, you know empathy as a strategy to both attract but also retain, because we all know how expensive it is for employers, right? Whether for profit, nonprofit government, it is so expensive to continuously hire and on board and try to do what they can to keep these young people. So, I mean, you have them stick for six months, 12 months, ideally, two years. And what is it that that’s going to take? So in addition to addressing the purpose gap, as it were, I’ll say a few other things about what employers might want to consider to be able to even more effectively attract and retain today’s young professionals. So it is definitely I mentioned this a little bit earlier, but there’s something around mentorship. So whether or not you have a structured internship, there’s something about, you know, you’ve heard this out there a mutual mentorship. And I just want to make the case for a more casual mentorship solution. I think oftentimes when we hyper focus on a very structured mentorship program, the two parties avoid it, and everybody loses that. It’s a lost opportunity. So I would suggest a more casual mentorship. It could be an in person coffee or a virtual coffee, where they’re just kind of getting to know each other first as human beings, before you jump into the human doing that is what, as you well, know, builds rapport, and then people feel like there’s a like a trust that they can come to one another. And, you know, again, the idea of mutual mentorship, just so that it’s not just hanging out in the space. There is that, you know, and you’ve probably heard, I’m trying to think, I think it was Chip Conley. He was somebody who advised Airbnb, and he came up, I believe it was him around the modern elder
Maria Ross 16:55
he has the modern elder Academy, yeah, there
Amy Mosher Berry 16:59
we go. And the whole concept of like, you know, it really is mutually beneficial to have these mentorships in place. It really is a win, win, grow, grow. So I just want to sort of say that. I want to say something about clarity, really making sure, whether they’re interns or again, early career new hires, that there are clear goals and expectations set up front, and there’s opportunity to have conversation about those goals and expectations, that they are mutually clear sometimes, or you think you’re being clear, and maybe it’s not totally gotten over there. So just making sure there’s opportunity and space for conversation, and making sure that there’s a sense that both parties, all parties, are on the same page and are able to contribute, whether it’s a clarifying question or offer something maybe the employer didn’t think about. So those are a few things I could go on, but yeah, I’ll kind of just have one absolutely, yeah, right here. I don’t mean to keep keeping on, but So young people, in addition to there’s another element of purpose, in addition to sort of social and environmental impact, it’s the idea of personal growth and development. So they really want to have a sense that they’re involved in organization. And I always say to young people, you know, it may not be especially out of the gate, right? Like, get in there, you know, even if it’s 40% a match, 50% get in there, get your foot in the door and do your best, be your best. But I want to say, like that, young people really do need, pretty early on, need to have a sense that they matter as a human being, right? I don’t need that or your listeners and that they have some sort of like upward trajectory. They’re not necessarily looking to climb the metaphorical corporate ladder, so to speak, but they’re looking to be invested in and cared about, which, yes, empathy piece comes into play. And I do believe that, you know, especially the you know, millennials that or Gen Y, and certainly Gen Z, if they’re not sort of feeling the vibe, they’re going to start looking pretty quickly. They don’t have that long term loyalty, as I’m sure your other guests covered, so it’s very important for them to have a real sense of it, personal growth trajectory. And I’ll just say, in a more structured internship program, it’s the perfect opportunity. And we’ll get into this in terms of what makes up a good internship program today. But you literally, literally by law, you have to have learning objectives. And I would assert growth objectives and ways to help young people achieve those growth goals as part of what’s going to both attract and especially retain them.
Maria Ross 19:26
Yeah, I mean, there’s been study after study that show that actually what younger people consider an empathetic benefit, and something they look for in terms of choosing where they’re going to go is the company investing in my professional development and growth. And so that’s not just like a ooh, that’s cool and nice to have. That’s actually something they’re looking for. And it makes sense, because it’s like, hey, if I’m going to work to the bone for you, I want to know that you’re investing in me. And so we’ve got to get rid of this thinking as organizations that, oh well, we’re only going to invest in them a little bit, because we may only have them for two or three years. Exactly. There’s no more lifers anyway, so you might as well make your people, as you know, as productive and as contributing as possible while you have them. I’m going to put a link to another episode that I did with the chief learning officer at TBWA, Rhonda George Denniston, where she talked about their philosophy, their global training program is amazing. It’s very structured. There’s lots of support. They can show you that in the interview like this is what we provide to you. And their philosophy is, we know we only have people for maybe four or five years. We want this to be the best place that they’ve ever worked. And we want to be able to sort of turn out people who are alums of our organization that are the highest performing people in the organizations they go to. We want to build that reputation as unclear. So there’s not a lot of companies that do that. Because, again, like some of them are like, Oh, we may only have seasonal workers, yeah, somebody for a year. Why bother investing in that? Right? Well, we haven’t even talked about how much damage you can do to your brand if you have someone who doesn’t know what they’re doing dealing with customers.
Amy Mosher Berry 21:06
I knew you were going to go that marketing route. I think that’s so brilliant. I think you know, and again, with your extensive background in marketing and strategy, it’s like, Well, what a perfect marketing strategy. It’s like, magnet. Be magnetic. Yes, rave about and then even if they do move on, they can be your recruitment ambassador, and that’s a hell of a lot cheaper than partnering up ongoingly with these. I’m not knocking them, but you know, right, wow, you could actually save quite a bit of money if you invested in that and had those people speak on your behalf,
Maria Ross 21:39
not to mention future clients and customers. Totally. Right. Right? Exactly. Okay. So I love this. Love it. So let’s talk about internships specifically, because that is an area where, you know, with no ill intent, a lot of companies get it wrong. So let’s talk a little bit about how, what makes a good internship experience, and also, how have internships changed since
Amy Mosher Berry 22:04
covid? Okay, let’s go there.
Maria Ross 22:08
Crack your knuckle, like, let’s go, yeah,
Amy Mosher Berry 22:12
oh my goodness, I love you. Okay, how have internships changed since covid? Well, just big picture, and this is just you know again, meeting your listeners where they’re at. This isn’t new information, guys, so bear with me. But as we know, managers today have a hard enough time keeping track of their already experienced and paid staff. Where does that leave the obvious business benefit in terms of working with non experienced young professionals? It’s not an obvious business benefit, especially because it is challenging as it stands to properly manage effectively hybrid, if not fully remote, experience pays out. So there’s that going on in the background. So the case for internships since covid, I think, has been a little bit more complex. It’s not quite as obvious, but I do want to say something in our current times, so right? The only certainty is uncertainty, as they say, and we happen to be living in particularly uncertain times. And as you probably deal with a lot of people in business leaders, decision makers, Maria and by the way, thank you for all of the work that you do, and PS for helping me. I was one of your clients years ago. I love how you can think kind of outside of yourself and think about what attracts people and like connecting the right people. I just want to say that in these moments where we are living in highly uncertain times, the irony and I am biased my friends, okay, I’m just going to say this. I say it is one of the best times ever to invest in a structured, customized internship program. Why? Because it is financially and legally encouraged, right, like it is almost when structured and run well, your customized internship program could bring immense business value, and there’s relatively low risk when structured and run well. So I just wanted to kind of say, like the big picture, and then, ironically, this is actually the best time when times are so uncertain. Well, you can induce some certainty by creating a structured, impactful internship program. So in terms of what’s changed since covid, well, I would say that it is now totally normal that internship programs with exceptions that may require you to be in person, which those are certainly out there, right? They are way more hybrid, and even in some cases, fully remote, than they ever were. It was really weird back then that a virtual internship would not have really been a talking point pre covid for most people. And in fact, Maria, I think you know this, but I originally the name of my company, which was born during covid, was virtual internship solutions, vis, and it morphed into visions for reasons. Here we are. But I would say they’re definitely more, you know, varied, kind of all over the place, especially if not intentionally designed, definitely more hybrid, if not remote. You know, one positive is that the geographic there’s an expansion in terms of opportunity, as far as geographic reach. So there’s also people that may have transportation challenges or physical challenges that now have more access to internship opportunities. However, I do want to say that there has been a reduction in diversity in terms of access to internship opportunities since covid. And that needs to be called out. It looks like you want to
Maria Ross 25:35
No I was going to say. And also just another downside to that could be kind of what we kind of left off a little bit about the whole experience gap, yeah, is that when you have this generation of professionals, you don’t get to sort of learn from each other, and learn by seeing right and learn by through modeling, through demonstration. That can be a little bit less of an experience. There’s a lot you can gain from that, but especially if we look to internships as a way to bridge the gap, to bridge that experience gap, for people who are like, Okay, I’ve gone from studying and teachers grading me and knowing what my syllabus was to now I’m going to be thrust into the work world, yeah, where as you were just saying, there’s a lot of uncertainty, like Things are not always as black and white. You might have to show more initiative. You might have to come up with more ideas yourself and be more of a creative problem solver. And that’s not because they’re quote, unquote bad workers. It’s because they don’t always see what’s going on. So it’s interesting. I have this push pull with hybrid remote in person as well, even for full time employees, right?
Amy Mosher Berry 26:42
For young people, you know, it really is a detriment for a lot of young people that they didn’t have that in person. And I’ll just speak on you about the experience gap just briefly. So the point being is that in many cases, you know, a lot of these young professionals are certainly taller than me. They’re bigger than me. They can put on that confident foot, right? They can appear like they’ve got it going on, because that’s the survival instinct, right? But they feel inside of them like I might even hold they might even, you know, have figured out earning that degree, 2019, 2021, 22 but they often, they absolutely lacked, especially that in person, real world, professional foot in the door. And so now they feel often like somebody’s gonna find me out. You know, it’s like, yeah, oh gosh. How do I do this? And I don’t want to look dumb. I mean, most humans don’t want to look dumb, but especially if you hold the degree and you feel like you should, but there’s really no shoulding, especially when you are Hello, let’s be honest. Anytime you know, in our 20s and early 30s, we’re all learning, I’m learning, you’re learning. It’s like an ongoing thing, but they often don’t feel like that’s safe to acknowledge, and they need to know that part of their whether it’s an internship, which is a more explicit on the job training, that is more intentionally designed for their training benefit, that is the one thing to really distinguish is internship from just hiring an early career, new, you know, young, new way, right? Green professional. That is the big thing is that internships, by law, need to have 51% majority benefit going to the intern. It has to be officially structured with learning objectives, and there needs to be that supportive process. But a lot of times, you know, companies are so busy doing what they’ve got to do, they’re not that’s not that’s not necessarily at the top of their priority list. It’s not that they disagree with it. They just may, they may not know the sort of protocol, and I do want to just mention one for your listeners to they can look up on their own. They can Google fact sheet, 71 it’s through the Department of Labor and the Fair Labor Standards Act. I believe it was originally most updated in 2018 so kind of keep an eye on the more. I’ll put a link to that in the show notes to it. And states tend to default to the federal guidelines, but there are criteria, especially for for profits that aren’t paying their interns, they need to make sure they’re following those seven criteria legally. So there’s that. I mean, there’s a lot of sort of pieces. I’ll just finish up this last piece, and I’ll hand it back to you, which is, you know, I want to say something that you know, since covid, there have been, overall, there are less openings in terms of internship opportunities, because they’ve become less of a business priority right now, because the businesses are still trying to deal with the post covid sort of reality. So there’s fewer internships overall, which makes them more competitive, and oftentimes people that have other disadvantages, let’s say financially, or they’re working elsewhere, full time. You know there’s an equity issue, obviously, if it’s a non paid internship, and internships can be non paid, but you want to mind that fact sheet 71 if you’re a for profit employer, you can have an internship program and it could be unpaid. But you know what I always like to say, let’s say to say, let’s say 15 hours or less makes it such that it’s not a social equity issue. Young people can still get a paying job alongside of a part time internship. So there’s ways to legally and ethically get around these things in a way that truly is a win, win and less hands on. And less quality kind of in person hands on, which impacts the young person’s learning. There’s fewer networking opportunities for fully remote they young people have learned to self manage and self regulate and use communication and project management and task management tools better, especially if they’re hybrid or remote. And then I’ll just say something else is that internships, you know, they don’t have to be cost prohibitive, especially remote can really be very little overhead, relatively if structured and run well. But it does need to be structured and run well. You don’t want to just go haywire. That won’t help your company either.
Maria Ross 30:38
Oh my gosh. Such good stuff. Such good stuff. Thank you for that. What are some common mistakes that leaders should avoid when hiring interns? I know we talked a little bit about, like mistakes in structuring the internship program, right? But what are some mistakes they should avoid in hiring the right interns?
Amy Mosher Berry 30:56
Okay, in hiring the right interns. So I’ve got a list of eight, actually guys. You guys can find this. I have an eight mistakes to avoid when hiring interns. Document that you can get. Let’s put a link to that in the show notes. Yeah. So eight mistakes to avoid when hiring interns. I won’t go through all of them, but in terms of your what are the top ones, program structure, so let me say something about you, where you’re relating to interns as any form of cheap labor and or being unaware of those guidelines that I mentioned, there has to be that majority benefit to young people. So just know that it is by design. It’s a training and development initiative which is also a business growth strategy, but it’s not just a hiring strategy, right? It can provide you with Project Support and access to talent, but you don’t want to overlook the distinction. I want to say something about you cannot assume that interns know what you want them to do 100% and assume that you know that they will know what or how you want them to do it. So please, if you get nothing else, my friends demonstrate before you delegate. That’s a nice thing to try to remember. Yeah, okay, huge mistake that business decision makers, they say, Okay, we’re good. We got an internship program. And then they plug the young person. Remember, no experience here by design, that’s what we’re dealing with. So you need to be open to that learning curve. But what they’ll often do is they’ll plug them into an ongoing operational process, versus a scoped out intern appropriate project. There needs to be a short term project. Interns come and go by definition, and projects start and stop, so scope out an intern appropriate project that they can plug into, and they can feel like there’s a beginning, middle and end. Yeah, that’s a whole like conversation over probably wine Maria, but we’ll leave it there. We already talked about the purpose gap, but in line with the purpose gap, just a lot of times when you launch an internship program, okay, we’ve got it together. Our young people are here, and they never sort of revisit what the young person actually wants for themselves out of the experience. So please do not overlook your own intern goals. It will definitely be, it will be mutually disappointing.
Maria Ross 33:00
Yes, it will degrade the experience.
Amy Mosher Berry 33:01
For sure. Some people disagree with this, but I stand true. Do not hire one intern at a time, and I’m going to give the quick example. I as you, you similar, right? We have similar age kids, Maria and my daughter is now almost eight and a half, so she was two plus during covid, and I liken this to having one intern at a time. Do you remember when your son during covid, like, Mom, mom, mom, mom, and you didn’t have the person who was approved to be in his covid bubble? So just if, like, you have one intern and it’s just them, they’re either going to be in your face, in your office, in your inbox, or the MIA, yeah, so that’s like usual, because they they’re like, hello, hello, hello. What about? What about? Haha, yeah. Or they’re just like ghost like, so you want to bring in two or more interns at a time, yeah, and there. But, well, I love that,
Maria Ross 33:51
that you want to create a cohort so they can become self sustaining, totally, right? So everyone I, I’ve always loved about the work that you’ve done with interns is that one of the value props you’ve talked about in the past was also doing some work with the interns before, yeah, putting them in an organization, right? So someone knows if they come to you, your interns have some baseline communication, professional, workplace indoctrination, something, right? You know? Versus just like, hey, hire my nephew. You know what I mean? Like, he’s been bumming around Europe all summer. But, yeah, well,
Amy Mosher Berry 34:29
I should say, just to clarify, Maria, since we’ve chatted and again, we go back, things have evolved for me. I no longer, I don’t place you, I don’t match you directly with interest, right? I help the right two to four people inside of the organization set up yes on the internship, and stage two of our five stage process involves who is the appropriate talent source for that company. Yes, I will help the right people identify who they are, and then it’s up to the employer. Lawyer, if I’m working directly or not with their interns, right? That little bit different than we
Maria Ross 35:04
first, right, right? And I but I think that that’s like, that’s such an important gap to recognize when you’re hiring interns. And to your point, which you made earlier, which is why clarity is one of the five pillars in being an empathetic and effective leader, you got to be clear. We can’t, especially intergenerationally in our workplaces. We can’t make assumptions, right? We can’t make an assumption that a 20 year old or 21 year old who’s never been in a professional environment knows how to write a good email, knows how to dress, knows how to deal with a client, right? They could be the best, smartest, most diligent person, but those are all things that we make assumptions about, and the more clear we can be about those expectations and about what I call the unsaids, the better experience your company is going to have with that intern, but also the better experience the intern is going to have, because Nobody likes operating in an environment of stress and uncertainty. They’re not going to be able to do their best work for you, right? In fact, the opposite, right, right point, right? You’re making me think of I may have told you this story before, but I remember my first job out of college. I was 21 I was working for a management consulting firm, and like after our three week initial training period, we were back in the office waiting to get staffed on a client, and I got asked to make copies at the printer. And this is, you know, this is the mid 90s. Like, I’m not saying that there weren’t printers then, but it wasn’t like I was using printers all the time in my life, right? Like kids do now. And so I go into the copy room and I faced this, like, industrial copier, and I was literally in there for 45 minutes trying to make, like, five collated copies of something. Like, I didn’t know how to get it stapled. I didn’t know how to, like, collate it. Like, it’s just the stuff that people assume. Right? It was the same thing when they asked me to make a PowerPoint presentation. And I had never used PowerPoint before, but I figured it out. And to your point about a cohort, I was working with other people that were in the same boat as me, so we were trying to help each other right through it. But just the stress of that, of the like, oh my god, this is making me feel like I don’t belong here and I have nothing to add. And then I just want to add one other point to what you’ve so eloquently shared with us today, is the purpose gap, right? That’s not just real. When you have an internship program and you’re trying to talk to young people, there’s that purpose gap for the employees within the organization, because the organization hasn’t clarified what their purpose is for their own people. And you know that can lead to a really soul draining work experience where you don’t feel like being creative, you don’t feel like being innovative. So I would say, you know, it so great to talk about it from a perspective of driving success with your internship program, but also if you go through that exercise of trying to clarify your purpose as an organization and making sure everyone in the organization understands what that means on a daily basis. Man, you can just accelerate results within your organization at large. It’s a great forcing mechanism to say, are we actually doing this right with our own people, let alone our interns? So I just wanted to point that out,
Amy Mosher Berry 38:21
no, because it sort of it shines a light on the larger culture. And yeah, for them, because the interns are very perceptive, even if they are hybrid or remote, they’re going to be absorbing the norms. And they’re going to say, you know, do I fit here right? A lot longer haul.
Maria Ross 38:35
It’s like when you tell your kid to do something and you tell them to do it, and they’re like, but why do we do that? Yeah, and then you stop and think, you’re like, I don’t know. Why do we do that?
Amy Mosher Berry 38:45
Yeah, I know. I know. Brie, I was just gonna, if we have a little we do have a little bit of time. Yeah. So one thing I think we talk a lot about, like, you know, in terms of young people in the workforce, right? They’re already there. But I want to say something about like, how can we support young people who are in transition and trying to figure it out? Maybe they recently graduated like my as I shared my recent we’re going to call my coachy client, Claudia. We’re going to call her Claudia. It was a C name, but I didn’t ask her permission to share her story. So I wanted to just give an example for perhaps other people that may be listening. Maybe you are young professionals yourselves, but more likely listening to Maria’s podcast. Maybe you’re in a leadership role, a decision making role. Maybe you’re a parent or a grandparent, or, you know, a young person who’s sort of wobbling and not sure. So I just want to share if I could really, yeah, please. And this best practice that I am kind of obsessed with, and I’m sure people have heard the term, but I just want to unpack it a little bit. So the one that I really want to emphasize is called the informational interview. And then I want to also just make a note and say, I also love job, shout. Knowing opportunities. So these are two very overlooked career development and sort of transition strategies for young people, but people of all ages. You may know people, maybe there’s been a long time stay at home, parent or caretaker that’s returning. So there’s a return ship thing that’s also a cool concept, not my own name, but there’s a lot of people that may be in transition at any age, any stage, or maybe they’re just looking to try something new before it’s all said and done. And it’s so amazing when you can line up informational interviews for people to have conversations, because again, leaning on your empathy work, which is so brilliant, Maria, it’s all about the human connection. It’s that rapport. It’s that foundation of trust and relatedness. And so rather than have young people stressed out about preparing for the scary interview where maybe, oh my gosh, I’m going to be, you know, maybe it’s a one on one, it’s a panel I’m freaking out. I can’t even or, you know, they prepared, and then they lost their train of thought, and it’s so stressful. Why aren’t we doing more to empower people through setting up informational interviews? So this is now my latest thing where I’m like, I love this story. Have people talking to people, and I’ll just say about my girl, Claudia here. Yeah, recently graduated college undergrad in May with an exercise science degree and really had no clue what she wanted to do. I met her few months back at a project management event I was speaking at. I happen to know her mom. We got chatting, and so we’ve been just sort of working together a little bit, and this otherwise, you know, relatively shy, uncertain young woman who’s amazing, who’s phenomenal. I hope she listens to this. You know who you are. She has followed through with five informational interviews in the last two and a half weeks, and she is so much more clear, so much more confident and connected than I have seen her in the last three months, like just in these last couple of weeks, talking to largely people that I’ve connected her with, you know, in my network, because it’s enjoyable to me, but she is a different human, and now I feel like, whether it’s with one of these organizations, because she wasn’t assuming, oh, hey, you know, what do you got for job openings? Like, oh, or I saw this on your website. What can you tell me about this? It’s not that conversation. It’s like, you know, can you tell me a little bit more about your career journey? How did you get here? You know, what have you learned? What’s a day in the life of She Loves asking, like, what’s a day in the life of, what are the tools, the tech tools, the reports, the meetings, and they have all complimented her on her quality questions, her listening, her follow up, and she is going to land something fantastic. I’m so excited well.
Maria Ross 42:41
And I love this story because you also talked about the fact that she, through this process, has learned about all these other career avenues she didn’t even know about before, about how she could apply a science degree, but not do, quote, unquote science, not be in a lab, not be, you know, and none of us know that stuff when we kind of come out of college, right? We there’s so many different branches that careers and fields take that you’re like, I didn’t even know that existed. I know constantly, even as, like, a 50 something, unlike, I didn’t even know that was a job. Yeah, that’s so we’ve got to get that’s, I think that’s the biggest thing we can do for young professionals, is giving of our time, you know, giving of that wisdom of just, maybe they don’t want anything. They just want to know your story, and love knowing your story and help them understand that there’s more out there than just, yeah, the five buckets they might be seeing, because that’s the traditional route that everybody goes
Amy Mosher Berry 43:39
absolutely and Maria, and it’s in for the business decision makers who are listening to consider, you know, yes, it’s helpful, and it helps the young person immensely, but it also there is a direct benefit to you as an individual and you as a company. You may be, in a casual way, doing an informational interview with a future you know, top manager that because of who you are, being as a human being, they wanted to be around someone like you. So it’s a huge compliment to you as a person, but it can also be a direct business benefit to your company, absolutely.
Maria Ross 44:14
Well, I love leaving it on that note. Good. Love to Claudia in her search. But this has been delightful, Amy as always. So we were going to have all your links in the show notes. We’re going to link to a couple things you mentioned. We’ll also link to your free eight mistakes to avoid when hiring interns. Yeah, document, but for those people on the go right now, where’s the best place they can find out more about you?
Amy Mosher Berry 44:36
Yes, awesome. So I’m going to give you guys my LinkedIn profile, which Maria gonna be so proud of me, and has recently updated my friend. So my name is Amy Mosier Berry, three names, no hyphen. So if you can, please find me on LinkedIn at Amy Mosier Berry, and then certainly my company website, visions with an S, internships with an s.com
Maria Ross 44:57
Fantastic, and my PSA for LinkedIn. And if you reach out to Amy, make sure that you tell her you heard her on this podcast so she doesn’t think you’re trying to sell her something.
Amy Mosher Berry 45:07
Oh, you know what? Let’s give them something so they what happens, Maria, this is totally off the fly. They say that they heard on the empathy edge podcast. They reach out to me, and what do they get?
Maria Ross 45:17
I don’t know. What do you want to give them? I don’t know
Amy Mosher Berry 45:20
guys propose something, okay? Because we would love to have that you you know, I’d love to know that you heard our conversation. Fantastic. I love it. We’ll co create it, because that’s how we roll.
Maria Ross 45:31
Maria, I love it. I love it. Thank you so much. Your insights
Amy Mosher Berry 45:34
are gold. Oh, thank you, my dear. You’re amazing.
Maria Ross 45:37
And thank you everyone for listening to another episode of the empathy edge. If you like what you heard, you know what to do. Please rate, review and share it with a friend and a colleague, and until next time, please remember that cash flow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. Stay well and be kind For more on how to achieve radical success through empathy. Visit the empathy edge calm. There. You can listen to past episodes, access show notes and free resources. Book me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes, insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slice. Maria, never forget, empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place.
