In today’s episode of Courage to Advance, brought to you by SparkEffect, Kim Bohr and Tracy Wik, VP of Business Strategy at Harrison Assessments, challenge traditional approaches to workplace stress. Drawing from decades of behavioral data and leadership experience, they expose how burnout often stems from unconscious behavioral patterns rather than workload alone.
With 83% of U.S. workers suffering from workplace stress and 76% saying it affects their personal relationships, organizations continue investing in wellness programs and workload reduction—yet engagement and productivity still suffer. Why? They’re treating symptoms, not causes.
Kim and Tracy demonstrate how our greatest strengths—whether being extraordinarily helpful, highly empathetic, or achievement-driven—can become our biggest derailers when overused. Drawing from Dr. Dan Harrison’s research on leadership paradoxes, they reveal how balancing seemingly contradictory behaviors is essential for sustainable leadership success.
You’ll discover:
- Why high performers unknowingly sabotage their effectiveness
- The critical difference between personality traits and behavioral tendencies
- Practical strategies for breaking the burnout cycle
- How to develop a more expansive leadership repertoire
Don’t miss the special offer for listeners to access the Harrison Assessment tool, complete with a professional debrief. Additional resources, including a self-reflection guide, are available at CourageToAdvancePodcast.com.
To access the episode transcript, please scroll down below.
“People don’t work in aggregate. They work in moments, they work in conversations, they work in individual connections.” – Tracy Wik, VP of Business Strategy
Episode References:
About Tracey Wik, VP of Business Strategy, Harrison Assessments:
A disruptive talent management strategist, Tracy Wik transforms how executives view their workplaces and careers. With over two decades of experience, she sees beyond spreadsheets to unlock human potential, helping leaders reimagine what’s possible. A recognized speaker on strategy, culture and women’s entrepreneurship, Tracy developed innovative executive coaching programs to advance women into senior leadership roles and serves as a Founding Forty Board member of DePaul University’s Women’s Entrepreneurship Institute, the only research-based women’s accelerator globally. Her mission: make executives love Monday mornings by turning workplaces from soul-crushing machines into engines of human possibility.
About SparkEffect
SparkEffect partners with organizations to unlock the full potential of their greatest asset: their people. Through their tailored assessments and expert coaching at every level, SparkEffect helps organizations manage change, sustain growth, and chart a path to a brighter future.
Go to sparkeffect.com/edge now and download your complimentary Professional and Organizational Alignment Review today.
Connect with Tracey Wik and Harrison Assessments:
Harrison Assessments: harrisonassessments.com
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/traceywik
Connect with Kim Bohr and SparkEffect:
SparkEffect: sparkeffect.com
Courage to Advance: sparkeffect.com/courage-to-advance-podcast
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/company/sparkeffect
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/kimbohr
Connect with Maria:
Get the podcast: TheEmpathyEdge.com
Learn more about Maria: Red-Slice.com
Hire Maria to speak: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-Ross
Take my LinkedIn Learning Course! Leading with Empathy
LinkedIn: Maria Ross
Instagram: @redslicemaria
Facebook: Red Slice
Threads: @redslicemaria
FULL TRANSCRIPT:
Welcome to the empathy edge podcast, the show that proves why cash flow, creativity and compassion are not mutually exclusive. I’m your host, Maria Ross, I’m a speaker, author, mom, facilitator and empathy advocate. And here you’ll meet trailblazing leaders and executives, authors and experts who embrace empathy to achieve radical success. We discuss all facets of empathy, from trends and research to the future of work to how to heal societal divisions and collaborate more effectively. Our goal is to redefine success and prove that empathy isn’t just good for society, it’s great for business. How do we break the burnout cycle? Well, we start with knowing what leadership behaviors impact workplace stress and either make it worse or help make it better. And we need to care about the mental health of our employees, because that impacts their productivity, their performance and their engagement, which all impact our bottom line. Today’s courage to advance sub series brought to you by the good for folks at Spark effect have us talking about this very important topic and challenging the traditional approaches to workplace stress that, quite frankly, haven’t been working. Today you’re going to hear from host Kim bore from Spark effect and her guest, Tracy Wik, VP of Business Strategy at Harrison assessments. You’re going to love this episode because you’re going to learn more about how high performers are unwittingly sabotaging their effectiveness, some practical strategies for breaking that burnout cycle, and how to develop a more expansive leadership repertoire so you can help your teams battle workplace stress and be more engaged and thrive. Take a listen.
Kim Bohr 01:57
Hi everyone. I’m Kim bore president and COO of Spark effect and host of the courage to advance podcast. And I’m delighted to be here today with Tracy Wik, the Vice President Business Strategy for Harrison assessments. Tracy believes that where most people dread Monday mornings, Tracy makes executives love them, which is something we all can relate to. And I’m thrilled to be hearing what she has to say with us today. Tracy is a disruptive talent management strategist with a master’s in organizational development from Northwestern University. She is an entrepreneur in her own right, having developed an executive coaching program to help advance women to senior ranks and achieve parity, she is also a founding 40 board member of the Women’s Entrepreneurship Institute at DePaul University, the only research based women’s accelerator globally. Tracy, welcome to courage to advance podcast.
Tracy Wik 02:52
Kim, it’s such a pleasure to be here. I’m so excited to talk to you today.
Kim Bohr 02:56
It’s going to be a great conversation. And so for our listeners today, we’re going to discuss how your leadership superpower may very well be sabotaging everything you’re trying to achieve. I know that’s a bold statement, and it’s worth listening to hear if what Tracy and I discuss resonates with you, or perhaps some of those even in your own organization. So Tracy, you and I have had looked at a lot of behavioral data over the years. We’ve looked, we’ve had a lot of experience in the realm of leadership and talent. And I think you and I, you know, coming together for this conversation, agreed, there’s some really alarming trends that we’re seeing, and in that it prompted us to perhaps bring forward this discussion for others, to see if maybe we can give some, you know, insight and guidance and direction that people perhaps can really put to use. And so Tito, as we start off, I want to just share with our listeners some statistics that you and I have surfaced that are really relate to the impact of stress and productivity and leadership. So according to the American Institute of Stress, they measure workplace stress, and their site lists several statistics that are very relevant to our conversation. First, they speak to 83% of the US workers say they suffer from daily work related stress. 76% of US workers say that workplace stress affects their personal relationships, and 50% of US workers are not engaged at work, leading to loss of productivity. None of that is what we want to be experiencing. So in our discussion today, we really want to talk about the notion of how wellness programs and reduced workloads really aren’t addressing the real causes of stress. We bring forward this concept that stress and impact to productivity and perhaps someone’s role misalignment is rooted more in these behavioral tendencies that people may not be aware of, that. Once understood, affords agency to making this individual change, and that’s really, really empowering and important to both of us. And so there’s a concept we’ll talk about a little bit later that we want people to understand, called the leadership Bermuda Triangle. But before we go there, we want to share just a little bit about ourselves and how we actually our own leadership journeys brought us into this place. So Tracy, I’d love for you to to kick us off with that.
Tracy Wik 05:23
Sure I would love to. And every time I hear those statistics, I’m always I just cringe, because it’s definitely my experience. From talking to my clients, they’ll tell me those stories, and then you hear those statistics. So prior to coming to Harrison, I was an internal practitioner, and I was head talent management for one of the largest banks in the world, and I had all of talent management, including employee engagement. And I thought I had mastered the art of employee engagement surveys. It was my favorite part of my job. I couldn’t wait to roll it out, and I had the, you know, part of it was to roll it out, but also to lead the executive sessions. The action planning is that, they would say. And I proudly present these intricate data maps and sweeping insights to the executive teams, believing I was driving meaningful change. And then one day, there was a thunderbolt of a question that came from, I’ll remember it. I just, I still see this person, okay, in the second row, a manager with a yellow tie shared my illusion with this piercing question. He’s like, Well, this is great, but what do I actually do? What do I do with this information? And I just thought he didn’t understand. So I went back to the PowerPoint with the aggregated themes and my data and my charts, and he said, No, I understand, but again, what do I do? And so I realized that I’d been delivering these beautiful PowerPoints, and it really didn’t impact at the human level, we were tracking, groups, departments, averages, key themes. But people don’t work in aggregate. They work in moments. They work in conversations. They work in individual connections. So by the third year, this was no longer my favorite aspect of my job, at the least. You know, I just dreaded it, and I felt like I was trapped in this cycle of presenting information that looked impressive but was really creating no real transformation. And so I really got curious about, what is it? What’s missing that could make a difference. And I think that the question that would ultimately change it for me was not so much about, what does the data show, but what can we actually do? And so once I started to ask, what can we actually do, it was then that I came to the notion that you really have to create a common language around behaviors, and what are we asking people to do differently or better or change from a behavioral perspective, and that’s how I came to understand the power of what Dan Harrison has presented In his theories.
Kim Bohr 08:20
Can you just share a little bit before I share my journey around you mentioned the behaviors, and I think people sometimes confuse that with personality traits or things, so just, I think that’s an important factor.
Tracy Wik 08:33
So behaviors, it’s not about personality. It’s about when, again, the yellow tie manager, right? Would ask that question, what I do? What he wanted to understand is, what are the questions? What are the conversations? What does he need to do differently with his people and so behaviorally, that looks like asking questions, that looks like being curious. So it’s about giving them the things to do that would then be at the individual level, to basically create the conversations for change with that individual.
Kim Bohr 09:13
And I think we also talk about, you know, the idea like people think, well, personality is hardwired Well, and that’s true. Behaviors aren’t now, some behaviors may be harder to change, but they’re also they also can be evolved. I think, you know, I love that moment in the description of how you can bring forward. What was that really pivotal point for you in your career? So for me, it was in my first true leadership role, I had taken over a new group. It was in a new city. It was everything was very new. And it was a very, you know, very kind of forward looking organization at the time. This was pre financial crisis type of timeline. And so I remember going in. And trying, you know, to just be, just try to try to just be a manager like I hadn’t really had all the training yet. I hadn’t had great role models in it, frankly. And so I really found that I was not very, very effective. And I can remember, I affectionately say my team was like, it was like, mutiny against me. I can remember this day that I had made a call to a executive coaching firm, and I can remember getting the call back. I was just getting out my car coming home from work one day, and the coach called me back and asked me to tell my story, and I can remember being in the front of my house, and I said, You know what I know is Something’s off. I’ve asked you, my manager and colleagues to tell me, what is it that I’m doing wrong? And nobody can tell me. And I don’t want, I want to lead, and I don’t want to have people feeling the way that they are feeling. And that started my journey down of really understanding what is the at the behavioral change level to create followership, to create, you know, a group of people that really respected what I was trying to bring forward. And that was a game changer for me, and that got me into more and more into the work of the behavioral aspect, like, you know, and then getting introduced into the Harrison and really understanding how much more agency and control we have, and how sometimes, like, the at the root cause, like we talk about, is that these behaviors we don’t even realize are, perhaps, what are getting in our way into being, you know, more effective. So I love that we both have these memories that are like very steering still, that we can steering.
Tracy Wik 11:50
And I, I think you’re quite like, if I could, yeah, but you’re describing is a perfect example, I have an expression called name it to tame it.
Kim Bohr 12:04
So when you have when I’m sure that, that when you are asking people, right, you said they can’t tell me it’s because there’s a language barrier, okay? And it’s the language of leadership that’s really missing. And so people, can I I’m sure you’ve experienced this and for the listeners, and she probably had this conversation too, where Kim and I could be having a conversation about behaviors, or kind of what we think we’re looking for in a boss, and she could use even some of the same language that I mean as I say it. But yet, when we walk away and we come back, we’re very on very different pages. And I think that is part of the challenge, is that without giving people the ability to really understand what we’re talking about and have the same language your experience and my experience is what’s happening in the workforce. And so I think that both of us really have a commitment, which is so fun, to share that, to really help people get the tools that they need so that they don’t have that because it right really creates barriers. And it doesn’t have to be, it really doesn’t. And I think just to extend on that, I think it’s creates barriers, and it becomes personal. Right, people start to feel that somebody is right and uses the labels of maybe they’re a jerk or they don’t care. And there’s these, we jump to this very personal place where most often it’s more that we’re, as you said, we’re just not using the same language. And if we understood that how we define that, then it’s a game changer. And so I think one of the things that I think you and I have talked about, and I think we see so frequently in the work we do, is this place of, you know, unintended consequences, right, where the impact that, like we just said, right? It’s not intentional to be personal, but yet people don’t realize that the perhaps their approach or their lack of empathy, or they’re perhaps not really understanding how to be more clear in their communication or asserting themselves, has this unintended consequence that really could be quite destructive in the organization and their leaders ability to lead. One of the things I think, that I want to really introduce to our listeners in our conversation is we talk about Dr Harrison talks about these ideal behaviors that help really drive performance and strong leadership and performance management. And I think that I want to just share what those are for our listeners as when we start to dive into it. And then I would love for you just talk kick us off around this idea of over indexing, because you have such a beautiful way of talking about it. So for our listeners, so you know the research that Dr Harrison has done, and we’ll put the research paper in the link in the show notes, so that you can get more detail about what we’re speaking to. But the. But these particular behaviors are really centered on the ability to really be successful. And so they are called paradoxes. The idea is that if you think about them individually, you may not think that they complement each other. And yet this is where, if we’re if we have a strong understanding and preference in both these become our superpowers. And so the four that really stand out, the four paradoxes are we think about this idea of warmth and empathy, being kind at which people are, you know, so often wanting to do, but also having that coupled with this idea of enforcing and enforcing, being able to have people still understand what the rules are they have to follow in order to get their work done, assertive and helpful, where we think about being very helpful, but also asserting our own needs, diplomatic and Frank, so being able to be direct and frank, but also in a way that’s very diplomatic. And bringing those two together, and then the fourth pair. Is this, the idea of open and reflective, along with our need of certainty. And those four stood out to us in the conversation, because there’s so much tied to leadership, burnout, wellness, and so when we think about this idea of when we favor one over the other, I’d love for you to just talk a little bit about how you think about that and when you you’re looking at data and working with clients,
Tracy Wik 16:24
sure. So the big idea behind it, I’ll start there, is that in today’s fast paced workplace, leaders are increasingly being asked to exercise what on the surface seems like contradicting skills, when, in fact, the way that the Harrison framework would talk about it is that they’re a continuum. So you know, using the warmth and the empathy, you need to be both related to people have a rapport, but you also have to hold them accountable. And that typically there is a preference or a strength. However, I call it the natural resting state that we have, where we usually have a preference for one or the other, and so that the unintended consequence, you call it over indexing, is when you rely too much on one strength versus another. And what happens when you over rely let’s take the warmth and the empathy versus holding people accountable, the enforcing is that you’re over indexing on that strength excessively, and then what happens is that instead of it becoming useful to you, it starts to have this unintended consequence. Diminishing Returns is that, I would say, and ends up being a potential weakness. So it’s something that people are usually unconscious of, that they’re doing it again, that they are just being them, like you like your story is a perfect example. You just were promoted. You were being the leader that you thought you were to be, and then you don’t really have the capacity to hold people accountable in the way that you should, so you might avoid some of the tough conversations in favor of harmony. And there’s nothing necessarily wrong with that, until it’s not serving the organization or serving the team anymore. And so that, I think is the unintended consequences, is a great way to think about it, because people, I don’t believe people get up, you know, in their day to purposely not do a good job. I think everyone gets up trying to do their best, and so when you give them the language that if they’re relying too much on one strength or another, and by the way, it doesn’t matter. It could be the opposite. It could be the enforcing. You hold people accountable, you know, all the time, and they lose the sense of who you are in the relationship. So it doesn’t matter, but what happens is, when you rely too much on one, it’s not in balance, and it creates this unintended consequence. And the key is to develop the capacity, like you said earlier,
Kim Bohr 19:11
with the behaviors for both. And I think you and I both have experienced that in our work, and I think I love the way you describe it, it’s that there’s this, the continuum and the flow, right? And although we, you know, so many, there’s often belief systems that we’ve had over our own experiences that have, you know, caused us to believe that these are good, this is the way it should be, and that if we flex into bringing either this other behavior into play that might weaken one of the other. You know that what we are, what we naturally do, and that’s where we get into, I think people struggling to perhaps see the opportunity you to change and to bring more balance. Balance into the way they think about leading and interacting with others. I think what’s so important, what we’re talking about, too, is this isn’t just leadership of others. This is just how we engage and go through life, regardless of whether we have direct reports or not. So I bet you and I both have some stories that could help explain maybe some of what we are describing to our listeners, anything that you want to share first? Well,
Tracy Wik 20:25
I’ll just share a story of one of my clients. His name is Joe, and we’re talking about the paradox of being assertive versus helpful. Joe’s strength was he was kind of Off The Charts helpful, if you will. He’s key to your point. He was the guy, okay, you know, like that. You know, I’ve got a guy that was Joe, and he had been at this organization for quite some time over, I think it was 27 years, and so he knew everybody and knew everything, and was the first call, and he made it his. It was a manufacturing facility, and he made it his business to be the guy that everybody called. And so people would call him. And then what started to happen is that he was spending so much time being helpful, that his performance, his individual performance. But then he had gotten promoted, and he had a bigger team, and he was not setting boundaries about who he was helping, when he was helping. He was just being helpful all the time. And it was a situation where he, when we talk about the burnout, I mean, I remember the first time going into his office, he just looked like he needed a nap because he was so overwhelmed. And he was like, I’m working two hours past the time I’m supposed to be working. And we started to just look at his, you know, balance of helpful being completely his strength and the assertive piece, not so much. And so what I said to him was, let’s look at that. Okay, let’s look at how that’s costing you. And at first to your point, he it was just he couldn’t imagine not being helpful. He couldn’t imagine not being the guy that everyone called and I said, don’t worry, you’re still going to be that person, but what you need to do is just learn to say no. So I gave him an assignment that he had to say no, just one time a day, and then he had to be willing to disappoint people. And he it’s, you know, at first it was he couldn’t do it. Then he did it two days a week. Then he did, like, three days a week. He never got to all, you know, five of the working days. But he did recently, we had a fun exchange where I had called him to see how he was doing before Thanksgiving, and normally he would call me right back, but it took him a week, and when he called me, he said, I’m taking your coaching. I knew you were just calling to say hello, and it wasn’t important. So I prioritize other people. I was asserting myself. I hope I disappointed you. That’s what he said to me, and I thought it was such a great example of how this concept came into play. And I thought it was great that he was having so much fun with it, and that we could joke about it. But that’s like a, I think, a great, you know, tangible description of how these things can show up in your own life.
Kim Bohr 23:23
And it sounds like there was such this. It was a reframing for him. Yes,
Tracy Wik 23:29
he was able to see that. I said, Listen, you know, not everybody you need, you’re always going to have the tendency to be helpful. Now, what we want to do is bring in some other aspects, what you had said earlier, and again, this, I think, was a big epiphany. I think a lot of times people think, Well, I’m just helpful. I can’t be any other way. Well, that’s sort of true, but not really. Yes, his his natural resting state might be to help and be the person that you know people call, and he can, as a rational business person think through is Tracy’s call as important as the view of operations, probably not okay, right? And he can prioritize accordingly and be assertive about what it is that he needs to get done. And I find that particular behavior when people realize
Kim Bohr 24:22
there’s so much in that idea of being assertive and helpful. And I found that assertive piece. There’s a lot of baggage in there. Sometimes there’s a, you know, I have found, I found this to your point of Joe, it’s, I don’t necessarily think it’s a gender specific situation, because I found many men and women that have a lower, assertive preference really like to be help, higher, helpful in their behaviors. And it turns out that there’s burnout, there’s opportunity when people feel like they’ve been so helpful and not had the. Ability to have their own needs met in that assertive world that they you know, there’s a this kind of the flip behavior of being more dominant and being kind of out of character. And I think resentment, burnout happens. I was working with a team doing this work looking at the team’s individual and collective data, and one of the things that I found really concerning was that the entire team had this preferences of being very low in their ability to assert their own wants and needs, and very high in their helpful nature. And they were having these stressful moments that were putting them collectively flipping to these areas that were more dominant, and they were starting to have a lot of resentment amongst one another, and burnout, and it was the team was in really dire straits, and work we did was around understanding that that had real consequences around their productivity and their relationships, even the relationships at home, because several of them are finding they weren’t able to create boundaries for what they needed to fulfill at home with their families. And so what we started to work on was helping them to do a lot of that reframing. And it was different. It wasn’t necessarily the same thing for each person, you know, part of it was a sense of, Well, if I assert what I need, then people are going to think I’m not a team player. And for someone else, it was, well, if I assert what I what I, you know, what I need, I’m afraid people think that I’m, you know, selfish or self interested, or some of these other words that we might think of that come up. And so each person had to really identify for themselves. What is it? And then the team collectively had to make an agreement that they needed to have more support around, asking people what else they had on their plate. Asking people, What did they have commitments around for their, you know, their family or other things. And one of the, you know, the tools we ended up playing with was this idea of Yes, and so that someone could have space to say yes, and then literally, and so that they can then have some space to think and negotiate. You know, if it meant helping to reprioritize their workloads, or if it meant giving some space to do it after their kids game, or whatever that might be. And that was a really for that team dynamic. We saw real shift in that particular way of relating to each other and work that was really, really powerful.
Tracy Wik 27:33
I and I can certainly say that that was the case for Joe, because he not only was he tired and burned out, like just really, you could see it in his physical, you know, his full demeanor. It was also that the team was suffering because he was giving so much to that there was no priority around what needed to be done by when. And so there was not the sense of meeting some of the numbers that they needed to meet. And I think then it became this spiral, and then he to your point under stress. And I think this is, again, the kind of how the burnout cycle starts to show you act out. And he would just become, you know, close his door, and then, you know, not return calls and act out in ways that people were like, What got into him. And I said that’s part of it. Is that if you’re not setting up yourself to understand this cycle in advance the reframing piece, you’re at the effect of it. You’re not causing your own outcome that agency you spoke about, Kim, you’re literally at the effect of these unintended consequences. And once he saw that, that’s when it could become playful for him, because prior to that, it was just this vicious cycle that he was in of overworking and feeling underappreciated.
Kim Bohr 28:52
And I think that’s something that so many of us can relate to. And I think what I find interesting about this conversation is that we all can fall into it and not realize we have, yeah, you know, and this kind of idea of the rat race, or, you know, constantly going through. And I think, you know, your mantra around wanting people to love Sundays is a really great framing of what’s possible when people think about, you know, how to break that cycle? You know, when we think about this work, there’s such a deep aspect around accountability. And I think sometimes, often, I think accountability is thought of, less of this kind of personal, maybe personal choice and how we show up, but more about that. What’s on my job description, what I’m you know, what I’m supposed to deliver. And yet, I think what we’ve found as we’ve done this work and all this data that we’ve looked through over the many years is that there’s accountability in all aspects of this data and aspects of these behaviors that really, you know, you. Drive performance. And I curious if you have thoughts on how some of that accountability starts to, you know, to surface or gets missed when people are moving through this kind of just before they have this awareness. Yeah, I
Tracy Wik 30:15
think that. I think it’s very freeing for people to see that there is a place that they can go to once they have the behaviors, right when we give them that language, like even just what we’re talking about, having self, you know, reflective or assertive and helpful. But I think that what starts to happen before that is, there’s missed deadlines, there’s unexpected, you know, resentment, kind of your story of the team, there’s and then it’s always the people, and this was definitely happening with Joe. That are the best performers, that seem to be the most upset about these dynamics. So there’s this kind of like self sacrificing spiral, almost, is how I would describe it, in terms of and then what happens is the person continues to do more of these behaviors that don’t actually get them where they need to, and it becomes this perpetuation. So it’s really something that doesn’t necessarily make sense to people when they’re in it, but when you give them this framing of it, then they can take a step back and see to your point. Oh, I need to be accountable to myself first, and then set this up. And I think that’s when it really makes a big difference for people.
Kim Bohr 31:37
What’s been your most surprising or, you know, just like I say, surprising experience in working with people at this, you know, with this behavioral level of data and and seeing, you
31:52
know, the impact,
Tracy Wik 31:52
I think it’s when you talk about the preference, the strength of being helpful. Let’s keep let’s continue with Joe. And Joe is helpful, helpful, helpful. And then all of a sudden there’s a stressor, there’s the moment the straw that broke the camel’s back, and Joe becomes the opposite of how he normally is, okay, and it’s very upsetting to the individual when they’re acting against how they see themselves, to your point, their own perceptions. And then it’s even more upsetting to the team, because employees, you know, they want leaders to be consistent, so if the person’s acting inconsistently, it’s this big kind of snowball effect. And so what’s been the most empowering and the most surprising for me is how when you give people that language that I just had a moment I just flipped, I’m acting out of how I normally am, you give them the ability to speak about it in language with no make wrong. It’s not you’re just being you, and here’s what happened, here’s the circumstance, here’s the pattern, if you will. What has been empowering about this taking the Joe example is how Joe literally uses these examples in his meetings with his people in a way that says, I may act differently than you know me on a regular basis, I’m just having a moment. And he calls it the hurricane moment. I flip and have this hurricane moment, because that’s kind of how we visualize this effect, like a hurricane blew in. I’m acting differently. And to me, that’s the most surprising, is then people get it. His people are like, Oh, he just had a moment. He just flipped. You know, they don’t go and do maybe what your team did with the mutiny. They literally give you so much more grace, and in that grace, you have the ability to continually learn, and so do they. And so to me, that’s been the most, which is why I’m talking about this, because I’ve never seen another tool that can do that type of true transformation so powerfully, so simply, with no make wrong as what I see when we’re using this language.
Kim Bohr 34:10
Yep. And I love how you said that, too. I think one of the pieces I’m always encouraging people is like, this is not good or bad. There’s no, you know, there’s it’s not this binary place. It’s about just this is just how we are, and we can shift and grow and change, because it’s behavioral based. And that’s okay. This is where we’re at this time, and we do have places that we’re going to more naturally fall to. But I really do try to make sure people think about this from a place of, this isn’t a judgmental lens, it’s a awareness building lens. And then you get to decide if what you’re experiencing, if you’re getting the results, you want that level of self reflection. And for some people, it might be and that’s great. One of the things I think that will you know, as we mentioned. Having this Dr Harrison’s research in the notes, I think is really important, is this idea that the leadership Bermuda triangle, and I hope our listeners will go and download this and really read it and understand just the thinking behind how certain behaviors, when they string together, really can very detrimental to a leader’s ability to be effective. And you know, I wanted to share some stats that just really support this. Gallup did another 2020 survey. It’s their 10th iteration of this survey they’ve been doing for a number of years, and they linked employee engagement and 11 performance indicators. I want to just share with the listeners the listeners the top four, and we’ll put the link in the show notes to this research as well. So what they linked was that employee engagement is linked to customer and loyalty. Engagement of the customer, it’s linked to profitability, productivity and turnover, everything we’ve talked about today and that we know that managers account for at least 70% of the variance in employee engagement scores. So just having knowing, when we talk about that, we all have heard those kind of stats, or we hear things like, you know, people leave because of their managers, and yet, there’s this real disconnect as to it’s like a big, it feels like a big, you know, jump between, well, yes, we know that, and how do we fix it? And so I think what we want to really be able to really start to talk a little bit more about is so how can people start to understand what maybe is going on, and what can they do about it? And so I don’t know if you have any thoughts that you want to kick us off with there or thoughts about anything that we’ve talked about so far. But I want to do well, I think,
Tracy Wik 36:48
as I’m hearing the statistics again and when you’re sharing your story, I think, I think it’s the first step I know, like, especially if we link it to, like, the burnout and the stress, that we kind of come back up to yes off of why we’re talking about this, and that we think that they’re not telling the entire story of the, you know, the leaders dilemma. Yes, it’s that, if you understand that you have these behavioral tendencies, and we use that language, and you prefer some over the other. But it’s not fixed, that you actually can intervene if you had the awareness and that it’s not bad, it’s your point. It’s not wrong. It just is that, to me, is the most empowering place. And I’ve seen this with leaders to stand because then they’re freed up to take action in ways that they wouldn’t. And I think that correlates to some of the statistics that if you talk about managers who are able to use these concepts and behaviorally adjust by getting better. It’s not perfect, by the way. You’re not that’s not even a goal. You’re just it’s just right. Having a, what I call an expanded repertoire of how you deal with different individuals and different circumstances, then I think it really is a place that you can start to create compelling employee experiences with leaders and employees, because it’s a journey that they’re on together, versus I’m just burnt out. I’m just in my office, and I think, to me, that’s the big aha that I want people to leave with, that there are ways you can get your arms around this and start to go to work on it, so that you don’t feel so trapped. Because I think that’s part of why people are so stressed, is it they feel just either in their role or or their organization, or in their in their who they are being? Indeed,
Kim Bohr 38:48
I agree, and I think that’s when you and I started talking about this topic we were talking to, you know, it’s, it’s like, somehow we have to interrupt or disrupt the patterns that so many people are in their in their lives, in their organizations, and, you know, just setting goal lists and just kind of trying to do all of that isn’t enough if we haven’t actually addressed the behaviors that are getting in our way from achieving, whether those are personal or professional goals, and whether those are, you know, leading or Just being able to show up and feel like you’re been productive and fulfilled in your daily work. One of the things that I think you know I was just reflecting on in our conversation is you talked about how the man with the yellow tie and how that really took you to this place of how do we start to find and how to bring more of this type of data in to be more engaged? I’d be curious if for you to talk us, to talk for us to talk a little bit about, how does this start to make that connection back for organizations in the way that they could actually understand how engagement could. That could be looked at different or more completely. Well, I
Tracy Wik 40:04
think that you can take a look at your engagement data, and you can look thematically like there’s, by the way, there’s nothing wrong with group themes. They can be quite useful. But what I would say is, what’s the story of the story of the data. It’s again, kind of coming back to that question, what can we actually do? So it’s not enough to know that communication is an issue. So what I always look at is, do you know those turnover triggers? Do you know those experience underneath it that are having people report that communication is an issue. And I think you don’t really, you can get this information really, quite easily, actually, by just asking your employees. And you can do you can just even put out a not even, you know, say, just tell us. What does this look like? Where are the friction points? That’s what I would say. And I think so often in, you know, employee engagement, like the readouts. I know in ours, we didn’t do that. We just gave the themes. But if we had just even come down one layer below, we would then be able to look at, what are some of those turnover triggers, and what are the warning signs, and how can we equip the managers in advance, as opposed to waiting till after the fact?
Kim Bohr 41:19
So what are so I think that’s so important to try to crystallize, you know, what we’re speaking to, and so what, when you think about, you know, you and I have talked about, what are some of the the ways to help people think about what those triggers might be, and what could they, you know, if they didn’t have the level of behavioral data that we’re speaking to, but they wanted to start to just kind of pay more attention. What are some things that you maybe would share with them? Sure.
Tracy Wik 41:48
So the first thing I would say is know that your natural resting state, ie, your preferences, are always there, and so be careful of what I call the overcorrection. So if we are somebody like myself, who is more of empathy person than enforcing I’m pretty low on enforcing myself, then if you’re finding yourself over like being in communication with people, like getting to know more people, that’s kind of like the over correction, and it’s probably not going to go very well for you. So kind of take a step back and think about what I always like to tell people is, how much white space do you have on your calendar? How much of the warning signs are you aware of
42:35
before?
Tracy Wik 42:36
And I think that’s what Joe did. I said you got to take a step back, and I literally gave him an assignment about how much white space do you have. You have to come back to me with reporting how many minutes you have of white space where you just can reflect and decide what you need to do. And he was shocked to find you didn’t really have any when he first did it. But I wasn’t because somebody who’s over correcting helpful, right? Probably wouldn’t have a lot of white space. Yeah. And then the other thing that I think is another client I just last week, I talked about, is to set up an accountability partner who’s a safe partner outside of it, could be your boss, it could be a co worker, it could be somebody at your faith based community. It could be anybody, but to it’s holding you accountable to that white space, or to that reflection, or to a different type of behavior, because I think that’s when you start to see, oh, okay, I have a choice here that I didn’t know I had, because you’re just kind of caught up in the moment. So those are really, they seem kind of white space on my calendar or an accountability partner, but they really do make a huge difference for people.
Kim Bohr 43:50
I’ve experienced that as well. I think those are great tips. And I think, you know, all of us know when we’re we could literally feel our bodies changing when there’s something happening that is out of, perhaps out of character for us, and we can feel the maybe building where that’s a that’s a where it’s a time to pay attention and to try to create that white space if we don’t have it already planned in of realizing, like, Okay, I need to take a step back before I I react, which tends to be those hurricanes, as you you noted, if we don’t do that, I think, you know, some of the, some of the things that I will share with people’s, you know, just to create the moment to think is, as I mentioned before, this idea of Yes, and this idea of, you know, reframing when we think about enforcing. There’s so much just reframing opportunity to what does it mean? So I think people can get themselves into a trap often, if they’re lower on the enforcing preference, by when they start to think of things like, you know, I’ve hired really smart people. They’re supposed to just know how to get their job done. I shouldn’t have to babysit. At them. I shouldn’t have to. It’s that kind of if you know, if any of our listeners have have told that of themselves, said that to themselves, at any point, it’s very likely there may be this you have a lower preference in the enforcing area. And yet, whether we have direct reports or we’re just working cross collaboratively, we still need to find ways to engage with others to get our work done, especially in this more interconnected world that most of us are working in. And I, I often will tell people that there’s part of that, that area of enforcing is setting more clear expectations, literally, like, what’s the expectation of our deadlines? What’s the expectation of what we’re producing, or what’s coming into our one on ones, and what’s the structure and that clarity alone moves people into a stronger place around enforcing. And so there are tactical tips that can help bring us as you described and as I’m sharing, that can help people move in these areas pretty effectively, completely.
Tracy Wik 46:03
I mean, I I’m just thinking of this CEO that I worked for who, literally, he must have said that, well, I’m only hiring people that know what they’re doing and, you know, and we all were worried we weren’t doing what we were supposed to because we didn’t know. I mean, I mean, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And so even if you’re hiring good people, you still need, from a clarity perspective, to make sure they’re aware about what the expectations are. And it’s something even if your natural resting state isn’t to do that, which is certainly wasn’t, it went a long way when we had team meetings and we all were aligned and we understood what was expected. So to your point, that’s a really great step to take that can create huge results in terms of performance into you know, from the clarity perspective,
Kim Bohr 46:54
absolutely. So I think for our listeners, you and I are certainly action oriented people. We’re also very much experiential people. And in addition to some of these, you know, tips we’ve shared, I you know, we want to present maybe some internal challenges that people can take on in order to just try to for themselves, see where they’re at. And so I want to, I’ll share the first one I’m just thinking of. I think, you know, we could ask people, they should ask themselves. So count how many times this week you say yes to request while your inner voice is screaming. I have no idea how I’m going to get Yeah. And if you’re finding that volume of yeses to be pretty high, there’s a really good chance you have an opportunity to increase that assertive preference and reframe what that looks like for you.
47:50
I’m just thinking, that’s what Joe did. That’s why I was laughing.
Kim Bohr 47:52
Yeah, yeah, yes, yes, yes. Tracy, do you have a with something that stands out to you that you, well,
Tracy Wik 48:02
there’s, this is kind of a it’s the same challenge, but it’s two sides of the same coin, okay, so what I think people, there’s people who have a preference, where they are great with high fives, great job. Okay? And even, and then there’s the other side of people who are, you know, kind of, you could have done something, okay, like, kind of the so I call it like a green target, like, great job. And yeah, other side is more like, you know, you miss the mark. So what I think is is interesting is just to notice, because you’ll notice, now that we’ve had this conversation, that you have a preference for one or the other, either the high fives or do you know you miss my you know expectation or you could have, and so just notice that you’re probably relying on one side of that coin or the other. Again, not bad. There’s just might be an unintended consequence of, are you missing the people who you need to hold accountable? Right? They’re missing a mark, but you said Great job, or conversely, you’re giving constructive feedback to people who might need a high five. So I think that’s just a really good one to see, because what I noticed is people definitely one side or the other of that coin is flipped.
Kim Bohr 49:20
I like that. I think one other one that comes to mind that might resonate for people is, you know, if you are in a position of leadership, or just a position where you know you need to give somebody some perhaps critical feedback, something that might feel like it’s really challenging, if you find yourself delaying to do that, telling somebody else, and hope that they will convey the message on your behalf, just hoping that it will get better, gonna go away. It’s just hopefully it’ll go away. They just, you know, if I will it enough, they will actually get that through my my energy. That is. Is not going to be the really great solution. And so if you find yourself in that situation, that’s a real opportunity to just step back and think about you’re not doing service to the individual or to yourself or to your organization. And so that’s, I think, a real opportunity to be paying attention to as well,
Tracy Wik 50:21
for sure. And then I just think the other one that I would just bring up again is the white space, okay, and that that goes across that’s not just about helpful, but that’s also for some of the achievement folks who get their needs met by the achievement more and more and more. Yeah, there’s a place where you have to stop and say, I’m okay. I’m okay, where we are. So if you are either saying yes, too much to things that you shouldn’t that overly helpful, or the achievement where I have to self improve, self and grow, I have to keep going, going, going. I would just take a, you know, Tally up, like I gave Joe that that. How many minutes do you have where you can actually reflect, as opposed to going from one meeting, one phone call, to the next. That brings to mind for me, when you know high achievers are I often use the analogies, like you keep you go to accomplish something, but then you move the goal post on yourself. So you keep moving the goal out, and so you you don’t even acknowledge that what I achieved is great and I can still do more or do better or whatever, right? But there’s this idea of like, it’s just not good enough. It’s just not good enough. And that comes to mind when you say that of you know, if we’re thinking about never celebrating where we’re at and accepting that we can still want to do more or improve that is a recipe for real burnout. Real burnout.
Kim Bohr 51:47
So as we bring our this conversation to close, Tracy, is there anything you want to share you feel like we have just to emphasize or anything we haven’t hit on that you want to make sure the listeners are exposed to,
Tracy Wik 52:03
I would just say, start where you are. Wherever you are is where you’re supposed to be. And there’s no there’s no place to get to. It’s just understanding where you are and then using these concepts that you know because, because, if you hear this, I think sometimes it can occur overwhelming, and it doesn’t have to be. So just start where you are, and then then it leads you into a new place with, you know, an expansive repertoire of what you need as a leader. And I just think that’s, that’s the big takeaway for me, you build your toolkit. You build your toolkit. Yeah, I love it. So for our listeners, there’s two resources that we hope you’ll take advantage of.
Kim Bohr 52:47
The first one is a very generous offer from Tracy and the Harrison team. If you are interested in taking the Harrison instrument and finding out for yourself what your preferences are and opportunities to grow. We will have a code that you can do that for complimentary experience, including a debrief with one of our certified professionals. That code will be on our courage to advance podcast.com, website, the second resource also on that same website is a self reflective experience, good activity that you can walk yourself through. It gives you some of these concepts, of these scenarios, and even some other other, more reflective questions that may help you do your own, a bit of your own assessment of where you might be falling into some traps. So we hope you’ll take advantage of both of those resources, and what I want to just say in closing is again, thank you so much, Tracy for sharing the conversation and your expertise and the passion that we both share around hopefully figuring finding this as a way for people to really make more tangible moves into healthier relationships with our our work in the ways that we’ve talked about. So thank you very much.
Tracy Wik 54:07
You’re welcome. Thank you for having me. It’s been so much. It’s just a delight.
Kim Bohr 54:11
It’s been wonderful. And I want to thank the empathy edge for hosting our podcast sub series, to the listeners that are tuning into this episode and really, just to say, you know, when we think about the whole premise of this podcast of courage to advance, it’s really where Transformative Leadership isn’t about having all the answers, it’s about having the courage to find them. Thank you, everyone we look forward to having you. Tune in again
Maria Ross 54:38
for more on how to achieve radical success through empathy. Visit the empathy edge.com there you can listen to past episodes, access show notes and free resources. Book me for a Keynote or workshop and sign up for our email list to get new episodes, insights, news and events. Please follow me on Instagram at Red slice. Maria. Never. Forget empathy is your superpower. Use it to make your work and the world a better place. You.
